Calling Out TimVP - on ref bias

[timvp]

I'll never get through to you.

Why not? If I read anything that would convince me, I'd be more than willing to switch sides. I have no stake in saying that the NBA isn't rigged/biased.

The NBA is not rigged, it is biased - money makes it so, and believe it or not, I'm not here to complain about it, not tonight anyway.

And Stern does not have to tell an official how to call a game. He can get his point across loud and clear implicitly, without a shred of evidence. Do you doubt this?

Yes.

[Guru of Nothing]

There is another factor at play which is nearly a discussion unto itself. The NBA has a rulebook which cramps the style of most players.

In a lot of cases I think a lot of refs are beaten into submission with a glamorous lack of fundamentals, and the ad contracts that accompany them.

It's messy.

[TwoHandJam]

Yes he did. You must have missed all the articles and all the time he spent whining to the media.



He was saying the same things before game one. He was saying the same things before the final contest with Bowen this regular season.

You don't get it. He accused Bowen of causing his injury, that is far more high profile than background whining, and it definitely caught the league's attention. Bowen's fouls were a farce, and didn't fit with the physicality that was allowed for other players in the very same game. On both sides. , the fact that make-up calls exist in the NBA should tell you something about the state of affairs.

That was weak. So Ray Allen and Phil Jackson are "masters" of working the refs. George Karl is a rookie? Yeah, he's only been ing about refs for over ten years.

Yes, Jackson was a master. Only you seem to deny this which is laughable. Mutombo has been working on his sky hook for years. It still sucks.

You are desperate to cry about the refs and you've fallen to humorous depths. Phil Jackson must have been off of his ref "mastery" last year because Bowen only averaged 1.5 fouls per game in the four games the Spurs lost to the Lakers. I thought you said he got Bowen in foul trouble by yapping to the media?

Bowen wasn't a factor in that series. No need to whine about him. Parker on the other hand was a huge problem in the first two games and was allowed to get to the hole with impunity all the while drawing fouls on contact. When the series moved to LA, things were officiated in a completely different way. Players were allowed to ride any slasher's hip and hand check with abandon. I don't think we lost the series because of the refs but the way the games were called for the final four games was very different. Consistency has always been a problem in the NBA.

Guess not. Come correct or continue to cry about the refs with Walton. Again, it's time for you to man up.

I know you're flailing when you try to smear me because of my relationship with Walton.

Man up.

Grow up.

I'm not going to go TwoHandJam digging. Copy and paste.

No thanks. At least not tonight. You've obviously read it before and didn't rebut so why should I take the time if you didn't. Try your search feature. It shouldn't take you long.

[Guru of Nothing]

One last comment (or two) and then I am done.

Refs are biased - I really find it difficult that you won't agree with me. Where you should disagree with me is on the degree of their bias. It lies somewhere between unbiased and rigged.

Parting question - have you ever gotten your point across without the use of words (spoken or written), or has anyone ever done the same to you? That's why Stern gets the big bucks.

[Obstructed_View]

That was a correct call. You aren't allowed to handcheck in that situation.

Explain that one to me, because I'm not sure how that's a hand-check. The way I understand it, a defender may touch an opponent anywhere on the court as long as it does not impede the player's progress. IOW, the player has to be moving in order to impede his progress. Ray wasn't moving.

By itself that particular call means nothing, but since the only really questionable calls in an otherwise well officiated game went in favor of one player that happened to fake an injury and complain to the media about it I find it highly su ious, and so should you.

Again, I don't think it's a conspiracy or anything dark, but it was clear to me that someone was listening to Ray complaining.

[Obstructed_View]

Refs are biased - I really find it difficult that you won't agree with me. Where you should disagree with me is on the degree of their bias. It lies somewhere between unbiased and rigged.

If refs are biased and the game is rigged, what are you ing about? In fact, why are you watching it if you think some suit in a boardroom is deciding the outcome?

Refs are human. NBA refs are the best in any sport anywhere in the world. Just take five minutes to watch what they are watching and what they have to react to. Try to imagine how badly you would do in that situation and you realize that they are the freaking navy seals of officiating. They don't tolerate incompetence, and none of the conspiracy nuts has ever been able to come up with any statistics to prove their accusations conclusively.

That's why I find the situation so su ious, because I think NBA officials are too good to make that many mistakes in one individual player's favor immediately after everyone in the media reported his accusations and showed him limping around in front of the cameras.

[timvp]

You don't get it. He accused Bowen of causing his injury, that is far more high profile than background whining, and it definitely caught the league's attention.

How come Bowen doesn't get in foul trouble versus Vince Carter after Carter said Bowen injured him. He must not have that "mastery" you talk about yet, right?

, the fact that make-up calls exist in the NBA should tell you something about the state of affairs.

Make-up fouls exist in every sport. It's just more noticeable in the NBA.

Bowen wasn't a factor in that series. No need to whine about him.

Do you read what you post?

Jackson was the ultimate puppet master at getting calls and every time he whined about Bruce, Bruce paid for it the next game.

You say that and then I show you that it didn't happen and then you say it wasn't about Bruce. Make up your mind and stop fishing for ways to justify your whining.

Parker on the other hand was a huge problem in the first two games and was allowed to get to the hole with impunity all the while drawing fouls on contact. When the series moved to LA, things were officiated in a completely different way. Players were allowed to ride any slasher's hip and hand check with abandon. I don't think we lost the series because of the refs but the way the games were called for the final four games was very different. Consistency has always been a problem in the NBA.

I don't even know why I waste my time with someone who didn't watch the series. Parker made a total of five free throws in the first two games. He must not have been "drawing fouls on contact" too much then, aye?

The Spurs lost because they started doubling Parker on the pick and rolls and no player stepped up from the perimeter to knock down shots outside of Devin Brown. No matter what the refs did, they weren't going to give Parker and Duncan the strength to beat the Lakers 5 on 2. The Spurs lost after Phil made a genius adjustment. PJack risked that the shooters would get cold and they did. End of series.

For you to even bring up the refs shows how weak of a fan you are. Your team lost. Man up and admit that and stop looking for excuses that didn't exist.

I know you're flailing when you try to smear me because of my relationship with Walton.

You came out attacking me in this thread. Don't start whining now becaue you can't handle the heat. Maybe it's a ref bias that you are losing.

No thanks. At least not tonight. You've obviously read it before and didn't rebut so why should I take the time if you didn't. Try your search feature. It shouldn't take you long.

I obviously read it before? How do you come to that? Because I ask you to copy and paste?

With that type of logic, I understand why it's always the ref's fault.

[timvp]

Explain that one to me, because I'm not sure how that's a hand-check. The way I understand it, a defender may touch an opponent anywhere on the court as long as it does not impede the player's progress.

If a player has the ball and his back isn't turned to the basket, you aren't allowed to put your hand on him. That's the new rule. It doesn't matter if they are driving to the basket, passing the ball or what. It's a foul.

[Obstructed_View]

Cool. I didn't know the thing about having your back to the basket. I thought that was below the free throw line only. Either way, since it wasn't incedental contact, and it was initiated by Barry, it's a foul. Again, by itself it means nothing, but it certainly isn't the only time in the game that someone touched someone else, and it was very ticky tack for a playoff game.

I'm getting off this train, because I don't like being on this side of the tracks. I don't think the game was fixed, and I certainly don't think the refs do a bad job, I just don't believe there's any way to justify the small number of bizarre calls in that game regarding one player. I would never have said a word about it if the Spurs had lost the game, because I hate everything about blaming someone else for a loss. It's an interesting topic for debate until the conspiracy nuts get involved.

[Guru of Nothing]

If refs are biased and the game is rigged, what are you ing about? In fact, why are you watching it if you think some suit in a boardroom is deciding the outcome?

I did not say the game was rigged.

Sometimes it's okay to read AND comprehend.

[spurster]

I thought the ticky-tack fouls went both ways in Game 2 though the refs seemed to go out of their way to call the Spurs share on Bowen. It won't help Seattle any. If Crybaby Ray gets touch calls, then TD will get all the Seattle bigmen in foul trouble.

[TwoHandJam]

How come Bowen doesn't get in foul trouble versus Vince Carter after Carter said Bowen injured him. He must not have that "mastery" you talk about yet, right?

I thought you were better than this. Carter was out for weeks following his injury so there couldn't have been any immediate retaliation. When time passes, so does the controversy. Regardless, calling refs out doesn't always lead to an effect but most of the time it does if the statements are inflammatory enough. There are few absolutes in sports if that's what you're looking for.

Make-up fouls exist in every sport. It's just more noticeable in the NBA.

Ok. I'm convinced.

Do you read what you post?



You say that and then I show you that it didn't happen and then you say it wasn't about Bruce. Make up your mind and stop fishing for ways to justify your whining.

I said Bowen wasn't a factor in that series so he wasn't whined about in the press. Jackson has whined about Bowen before and gotten results but not in that series. Try learning how to read before getting your panties in a twist.

I don't even know why I waste my time with someone who didn't watch the series. Parker made a total of five free throws in the first two games. He must not have been "drawing fouls on contact" too much then, aye?

The issue in the first games is that he was aloud to drive the lane but not when the series shifted to LA. Even when he (and others) drove and were fouled, there were no whistles. A lot more physicality was aloud when previously it hadn't been. Even Popovich mentioned this in the press if I'm not mistaken. This happens often from crew to crew, even within a series. Consistency is for .

For you to even bring up the refs shows how weak of a fan you are. Your team lost. Man up and admit that and stop looking for excuses that didn't exist.

I already said the refs weren't the reason they lost that series and that series was not the focal point of my discussion. I mentioned it wrt consistency. You're just trying to pigeonhole the argument into your tired belief that everyone who complains about refs are whiners that think they're out to get their team.

You came out attacking me in this thread. Don't start whining now becaue you can't handle the heat. Maybe it's a ref bias that you are losing.

At least I attacked you on the issues, not about who your brother-in-law is. Grow up.

I obviously read it before? How do you come to that? Because I ask you to copy and paste?

With that type of logic, I understand why it's always the ref's fault.

You've posted in numerous threads about officiating so how is it a stretch to assume you read the comments? o?

Since it's early morning today and you're too lazy, I'll post the link here for your convenience.

[Obstructed_View]

I did not say the game was rigged.

Sometimes it's okay to read AND comprehend.

The fact is you repeatedly say that the game isn't rigged while arguing the contrary. You suggest that the NBA non-verbally strong-arms the refs into influencing the outcome of games for the benefit of big markets or more games. Must be my lack of comprehension, but that sounds like rigging to me, and I wouldn't give a dime of my money to a sport that I thought was doing that.

[Spurminator]

I don't see how there can be any question that referee crews are not 100% objective or consistent. It's not necessarily about a league-wide conspiracy to favor one team over the other, but if we accept the fact that the home team typically gets more calls in their favor then it's not out of the question that there may be other areas where the officiating might skew.

Referee crews make adjustments, just like teams. Sometimes they over-adjust, like Game 2. The foul calling on Bowen was inexcuseable, and it's laughable to suggest that it was only a coincidence. Regardless of what the Spurs said AFTER the game, you could tell by watching their expressions during the game that they knew what was up. Everyone did.

That said, I wouldn't belabor the point because I think things will even out. I expect Bowen to be allowed to play more physical in Game 3, because I believe more adjustments will be made by the referee crew.

And given the nature of the game, someone is bound to end up feeling screwed.

[T Park]

Anyone that thinks, that the ref with the salt and pepper slicked back hair, wasnt gotten to before that game and told,

"Look, call it tight when Allen has the ball"


Everytime allen had the ball, , he FELL ON HIS OWN AND GOT A CALL.


Once again, THE WORST, referees in ANY Sport period.

[timvp]

I thought you were better than this. Carter was out for weeks following his injury so there couldn't have been any immediate retaliation. When time passes, so does the controversy. Regardless, calling refs out doesn't always lead to an effect but most of the time it does if the statements are inflammatory enough. There are few absolutes in sports if that's what you're looking for.

Yet another case of you calling something and it being wrong. Congrats.

I said Bowen wasn't a factor in that series so he wasn't whined about in the press. Jackson has whined about Bowen before and gotten results but not in that series.

Make up your mind.

The issue in the first games is that he was aloud to drive the lane but not when the series shifted to LA. Even when he (and others) drove and were fouled, there were no whistles. A lot more physicality was aloud when previously it hadn't been. Even Popovich mentioned this in the press if I'm not mistaken. This happens often from crew to crew, even within a series. Consistency is for .

He wasn't "aloud" to drive through the lane after game two because the Lakers changed their defense. They started doubling him off pick-and-rolls and made it impossible to to get into the lane. You can cry that there weren't enough foul calls, but that wasn't the case. It's just the case of you being a whiny fan.

Do you have a link on the Pop quote you are talking about? Didn't think so.

I already said the refs weren't the reason they lost that series and that series was not the focal point of my discussion. I mentioned it wrt consistency. You're just trying to pigeonhole the argument into your tired belief that everyone who complains about refs are whiners that think they're out to get their team.

Okay if it wasn't the refs who lost the series, then why are you whining? The Spurs got outplayed and outcoached. End of story. Even if the refs tried to help the Spurs win that series, they were shooting so bad that it wouldn't have helped.

At least I attacked you on the issues, not about who your brother-in-law is. Grow up.

I'm sorry. But notice that I didn't get a technical foul. Probably a conspiracy.

Go start another whining thread.

You've posted in numerous threads about officiating so how is it a stretch to assume you read the comments? o?

Since it's early morning today and you're too lazy, I'll post the link here for your convenience.

I post when I see fans such as yourself weeping over nothing. Since they can't man up, they resort to whining about the refs. It happens in every sport. You are not alone.

I'll check out you link later.

Thanks.

[timvp]

I don't see how there can be any question that referee crews are not 100% objective or consistent. It's not necessarily about a league-wide conspiracy to favor one team over the other, but if we accept the fact that the home team typically gets more calls in their favor then it's not out of the question that there may be other areas where the officiating might skew.

Referee crews make adjustments, just like teams. Sometimes they over-adjust, like Game 2. The foul calling on Bowen was inexcuseable, and it's laughable to suggest that it was only a coincidence. Regardless of what the Spurs said AFTER the game, you could tell by watching their expressions during the game that they knew what was up. Everyone did.

That said, I wouldn't belabor the point because I think things will even out. I expect Bowen to be allowed to play more physical in Game 3, because I believe more adjustments will be made by the referee crew.

And given the nature of the game, someone is bound to end up feeling screwed.

Exactly. It will even out.

I re-watched the game again and noticed a bunch of questionable offensive fouls on the Sonics when Bowen flopped. That tells me that they were just hypersensitive about everything regarding Bowen. That won't last more than one game.

[timvp]

Anyone that thinks, that the ref with the salt and pepper slicked back hair, wasnt gotten to before that game and told,

"Look, call it tight when Allen has the ball"


Everytime allen had the ball, , he FELL ON HIS OWN AND GOT A CALL.


Once again, THE WORST, referees in ANY Sport period.

I rest my case.

[T Park]

rest your case what?

On what??


If youc ant tell that THAT ref, had gotten instuctions to call the game tight on Bowen, well I guess it was just a "freak" think right?

[texbumTHElife]

Are these the "Jim Rome is Burning" forums or what? This is all cracking me up! I dont think i have ever seen the term "man up" used this often in such a short thread.

[timvp]

rest your case what?

On what??


If youc ant tell that THAT ref, had gotten instuctions to call the game tight on Bowen, well I guess it was just a "freak" think right?

Spurs fans beg for Joey Crawford, get him and then still complain. One day they'll figure out it's not about the refs.

It's about basketball.

[TwoHandJam]

Yet another case of you calling something and it being wrong. Congrats.

How juvenile. Please read what I said and this time, try and digest it.

Make up your mind.

What I said was very clear the first time. You just didn't understand it. This is what I said the first time:

Jackson was the ultimate puppet master at getting calls and every time he whined about Bruce, Bruce paid for it the next game.

Please show me where I was referring to the series in 2003. Thank you.

He wasn't "aloud" to drive through the lane after game two because the Lakers changed their defense. They started doubling him off pick-and-rolls and made it impossible to to get into the lane. You can cry that there weren't enough foul calls, but that wasn't the case. It's just the case of you being a whiny fan.

Do you have a link on the Pop quote you are talking about? Didn't think so.



Okay if it wasn't the refs who lost the series, then why are you whining? The Spurs got outplayed and outcoached. End of story. Even if the refs tried to help the Spurs win that series, they were shooting so bad that it wouldn't have helped.

How typical. How did I know the meat of your response would have everything to do about dragging the discussion into the 2003 LA series. I referred to that series as a footnote to highlight problems with consistency in officiating. However, your agenda and 4th grade analysis continues to harp on it because you'd like to make the issue about "whiners" who don't "man up" and are into conspiracy theories. How many times do I need to say that this isn't the issue?

I'm sorry. But notice that I didn't get a technical foul. Probably a conspiracy.

Go start another whining thread.


I post when I see fans such as yourself weeping over nothing. Since they can't man up, they resort to whining about the refs. It happens in every sport. You are not alone.

Could your rhetoric be any worse? You sound a little deranged now.

I'll check out you link later.

Translation: I rather keep pushing my agenda now because the real discussion scares me. I think you need to "man up" and read the link.

[2centsworth]

Complaining about officiating is a waste of time. The best team in a 7 game series almost always wins. Sure the officiating slightly benefited the Sonics in Game 2, but overall not too bad, maybe 5 or 6 bad calls. I'll give them a C- for their performance. However, I do think Pop should make a point of protecting Tony and Manu from the unnecessary roughness at the end of ball games, but he doesn't have to do it in the media.

I love Pop and the Spurs at ude when it comes to officiating. They pretty much tell everyone one that the officials are going to save them because we're still gonna kick your ass. That is Hard!

[yeahone]

I've had a few, so hopefully you can win this tiny debate.

Did Jeff Van Gundy lie?

Are the NBA refs biased in the Sonic's favor in tonight's game?

Please lead with yes or no responses.

no

[yeahone]

I called him out in the game blog thread already. You'd have to be blind to not see the bias tonight, and it's certainly not the first time. This is nothing new.

The whole thing about believing JVG was "lying" is also funny.

i think van gundy lied.