ESPN's Ric Bucher on Manu vs TP

[BlairForceDejuan]

Spurs rely on TP's scoring the most. This is fact.

[ego]

I don't respond seriously to no-name's with terrible arguments, sorry.

You are sorry ? oh no! don't let me cry now !! you know it's terrible to discover that you are a no-name
I have some difficulties to get good arguments. It's very hard to understand
the Hollinger's formulas. Who is this Hollinger ? A NBA nobel price surely, but a hollinger' fan like you with a NAME, knows perfectly the formula of TS

True Shooting Percentage = (Total points x 50) divided by [(FGA + (FTA x 0.44)]

whoaa!! impressive. How could I have missed this formula !!
I'm sure Pop consults the list of True Shooting before any game to build his team.

Some ranks are very interesting :

3) Shaquille O'Neal .655 (Shaq always young and good!)
4) Matt Bonner .651 (I always knew that Matt was the best )
5) Ronny Turiaf (who is Turiaf ? perhaps we can trade this player : Matt and Ronny in the same team)
46) G Hill .594 (Now I know why GH has a lot of fans)
49) Manu .590 ( impressive )
59) Lebron James .583 ( Hey Manu , James is behind you, what do you think of that ?)
68) Dwyane Wade, MIA .576 ( Hey Manu , the same for Wade !!)
76) TP .572 (You need to move your ass Tony, you can't play in the french team with a bad rank)

103) Kobe Bryant, LAL .558 ( TP > Kobe ok finally you can play for the frogs)

105) Tiago Splitter, SA .557 ( hey Tiago good play! where is Scola ? )
107) Chris bosh .556 (Chris ! you need to move your ass, Tiago is before)
152 Derrick Rose, CHI .54 ( oh ! a TRUE all-star )
157) Luis Scola, HOU .537 ( Now you now why Scola don't play with SA )

204) Tim Ducan .52 (Shocking !!! the clash!! We need a trade and I need to take some rest, the nervous breakdown arrives !)

[jestersmash]

True shooting percentage is not Hollinger's formula. It's not an arbitrary formula; it's a mathematical certainty.

The word "formula" carries so much baggage on this forum. People see "formula" and assume it's somehow arbitrary and merely some "invention" by some guy. There are formulas that fit that bill. PER is an example. PER is an arbitrary invention of Hollinger and by no means does it provide an incontrovertible ranking system of NBA players.

True shooting percentage, however, isn't anything like that. It's a formula in the same way "3P% = (3PM/3PA)" is a formula. Nobody attributes 3P% = (3PM/3PA) to any person because it's so shockingly simple and self-evident that it's not necessary. True shooting percentage may not be as self-evident to many people, but it holds the same degree of mathematical certainty as "3P% = (3PM/3PA)" does.

I gave you a very simple scenario in my earlier post -

Player A shoots only 2 pointers, shoots 50% from the field, and attempts 20 shots per game. Player A will go 10-20 in any given game and will score 20 points on 20 possessions. FG% = 50

Player B shoots only 3 pointers, shoots 40% fromt he field, and attempts 20 shots per game. Player B will go 8-20 in any given game and will score 24 points on 20 possessions. FG% = 40

You simply need to realize that 50 > 40 and 20 < 24 in order to understand the concept. It's not very difficult.

The rest of your post is frivolous as far as I'm concerned. I'm not going to make any assumptions as to what your sarcasm might imply about what you think I tried to argue earlier in this topic. That said, just to be crystal clear, I never once suggested that true shooting percentage should be used as the only metric to assess how good NBA players are, and seeing as how you only addressed me in your response, I'd say that your sarcasm is misplaced.

[analyzed]

You are correct that true shooting is just one of the metrics in determining a players efficiency and productivity. ( no one sugested it was the only metrics) . So while JJ redrick might have a better true shooting % ( because he only takes open 3's) that dosen't make him a better player. But nevertheless it's simply correct that true shooting %, is a simple mathematical fact.

I don't think you can just look at true shooting percentage either. I think that favors spot-up 3-point shooters. Yes, it's something to look at when deciding the efficiency of two players, but its not the clear-cut deciding factor. I mean J.J. Re has a higher true shooting percentage than both Manu and Parker. Why? Because he hits open three's all day.

[ego]

Sorry I would not be (too) sarcastic but you agree with me that any metric can determine if a player is fine or not for its team. It's only a simple mathematical fact. I understand what you want to demonstrate but all of this has no importance. The fact is SA plays the best BB of the league but the SA style is misunderstood and underestimated. A lot of metrics are useless to mesure the importance of a player in collective style. Sometimes some facts are more important, for example TP was very good tonight 11/17 with 2/2 at 3PT ( very good TS !!) but the more important fact, TP scored 12 pts in the first 8 min !!!!. The game was over and easy for the team but all the fans look only at the clutch player.

Postgames show a lot of things.
Kings Head Coach Paul Westphal :
"Well, I thought they put on a clinic in the first quarter against us. After that we just tried to play catch-up the rest of the game, and they’re too good to do that against"

Kings Forward Carl Landry :
First quarter
“They came out and were real aggressive first quarter. A lot of times teams don’t do that especially on a back-to-back. They had a game last night in L.A. and they came out the first half and threw the first punch and I think that’s what got them off to a good start and led them throughout the game.”

and the post I prefer :

“They just play right man. They play the right way. They have a good group of guys. A good team around Tim Duncan. But nothing too spectacular, no Lebron James or anything like that. They just get it done. Ginobili is a good player. So is Tony Parker, and Tim Duncan. They’re just smart, they do all the little things to win ball games and that’s why they’re the best in the league.”

TP > Manu or Manu > TP : These assertions have no meaning, I'm happy for Manu making the all-star game but I regret for TP, for RJ and the whole team because SA is perhaps the only team in the league to play very collective with very unselfish players.

[cutewizard]

Manu is just a special player. Tony is great at what he does best using his quickness and speed now he is more of a consistent jump shooter. But what we have in Manu is special. Although last night he kept trying to give the ball game away. In my house we have a saying "manu giveth and Manu taketh away" for when he has his bonehead moments and more often than not when he has his moments of brilliance. I still see a lot of John Havlicek in Manu's game. Without the fancy stuff, the guy is relentless even now that he seems to defer to his shooting more than his driving. But he still plays with a reckless abandon and does everything, defense, rebounds, steals, just a regular pest. I said this when he came in in 03 and I'll say now I would pay to watch this guy play in any venue, even the church league.

Perfect thoughts....

i coudnt have said it better

Manu rules!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!

[mathbzh]

There's a much more fundamental issue here.

Manu Ginobili true shooting percentage = 59.1%
Tony Parker true shooting percentage = 56.9%

Manu is more efficient scoring-wise than Tony. Why? Because he takes a lot more 3 point attempts, and 3 point attempts are worth more. If you look at total FG% alone, you are foolishly penalizing a person who takes more 3 point attempts than 2 point attempts even if that person is more efficient at scoring from the field.

More exactly Manu has a better TS% thanks to FT shooting.
Parker has a better effective fg% (53% vs. 51%).

[patos]

butcher is trying to defend his vote choosing westbrock or williams over tp at allstar break

i think he just knows manu is better than tp and i think all the coaches agree.

[ego]

i think he just knows manu is better than tp and i think all the coaches agree.

The only disadvantage of TP is physical. Most of the others guards are more physical ( but sometimes I have a doubt about some guys).

In direct confrontation, Westbrook is not better of Parker
18 OCT
Westbrook 35min 7/15 3PT 0/0 FT 3/4 AST 9 PF 4 TO 3
TP 26 min 9/15 3PT 0/0 FT 6/6 AST 6 PF 2 TO 0

TP is a better shooter Better finisher and better at the line

14 NOV
Westbrook 5/17 3PT 0/0 FT 9/10 Rb 2 AST 8 PF 3 ST 2 TO 2
TP 32 min 9/15 3PT 0/0 FT 6/6 RB 5 AST 3 PF 1 ST 1 TO 3

I think TP is a better shooter and for the assists is not clear because when TP makes only 3 ast , ginobili makes 4 GH makes 5. Actually it' always like this, If TP can't make assists, Manu or GH are present.

Bilan TP 2 WB 0

19 NOV
D. Williams 37 min 7-19 3PT 1-6 FT 8-11 AST 5 ST 0 TO 2
T. Parker 35 min 11/17 3PT 1-1 FT 1-2 AST 7 ST 4 TO 2

TP >> DW in this game in all categories

Deron Willams had a good game the 26/01
D. William 41 min 16/24 3PT 0/5 FT 7-8 AST 9 PF 3 BUT TO 4
T. Parker 37 min 9-15 3PT 1/3 FT 4-4 AST 6 PF 2 TO 5

A good game for Deron but SA wins the game but good game for TP

Bilan TP 1 DW 1

And at the end TP will be the MVP of the finals in PlayOffs !

[wildbill2u]

Funny that no one mentioned Manu's prowess at shooting FTs, especially pressure FTs in the closing minutes. If the opposing team fouls him, they are attacking our best FT shooter.

That's one big reason why the ball is put in his hands at the end of the game.

[ducks]

Popovich stated, it’s Tony Parker that keeps everything copacetic.

More so than in any of his previous All-Star seasons, Parker is walking that fine line between distribution and scoring to near perfection most games, as he did last night. There has not been any specific improvement in his passing or court vision, but the decision making has been honed and the options around him vastly improved.

Read more: http://www.48minutesof .com/san-a...#ixzz1D9A80Umh

[analyzed]

Plain and simple Manu is special, there are probably only 2 shooting guard you would trade for Manu : Kobe and Wade and get the same value back for at least this season and next. Note : Kobe and Wade are MVP level candidates nothing less, that's the level Manu is.

The same cannot be said of Tony , you could easily find at least half a dozen point guards and get equal value in return if you traded him ( not suggesting the Spurs do) : Williams, CP3, Westbrook , Nash, Rando, Rose etc ( note some of them are not MVP level players like Kobe and wade)

Simply said Manu is more special. And Tony while good is more ordinary and less special

[ducks]

tp is a special point guard

tp would average 12 assist if spurs did not run the motion offense

he passes to dice for a open look he passes to a more open blair

this type of play happens alot

people may say tp is not as special because he does not post up many point guards


and the west is loaded with quality point guards
but he is special

manu is special to
he seems to thrive on the final minutes of games

I think tp can also but pop knows manu can and when tp gets the chance you people will be proven wrong

[jestersmash]

For the last 10-11 games or so, Tony Parker has clearly been the MVP of our team, and that's really the beauty of this spurs team. We have 3 guys who, on any given stretch, can assume the burden of being the "alpha dog."

I'm really impressed by Parker's improvement in 3 point shooting. You can tell his practice is paying off. He doesn't attempt that many 3 pointers per game, but he seems to consistently go 0-1, 1-1, 2-2, 1-2, 1-3, etc. which is just spectacular for him.

[LoveMySpurs]

I think the Spurs are fortunate to have BOTH of these guys and have them BOTH healthy (amazing what NOT playing for your national team does for your NBA game) I personally like Manu's play better-but both are having a great season in different ways (as has been pointed out) But don't forget the supporting cast that allow these guys to do their 'stuff'.

Let's ALL stay health and get ring # 5!!!

[spizzle_tronk]

u mad
u all mad

[K-State Spur]

In the same chat, Bucher also said:

Duncan is, essentially, David West, as in a jump-shooting PF/C. That's not what wins playoff games.

Bucher says lots of stuff, most of it completely worthless.

Bucher's style is just to make up points that support his conclusions and ignore the facts that do not.

(According to 82games and my own eyes) Duncan shoots far less jumpshots than KG, Dirk, or Bosh - has Rick written off those three teams as well?