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  1. #1
    Homer 2centsworth's Avatar
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    now he's being sucked into the debate. Simple truth is Spurs can't win it all without either at the top of their game.

    ...but I heard a debate today about how Tony Parker is better than Manu because his shooting percentage is higher. This is where comparing stats drives me nuts. Is it fair to Manu to question his FG percentage when he's asked to take more pressure shots and has defenses geared more toward him than the other guy? No knock on TP, but the idea that he's better than Manu is just bizarre. No one in the Spurs' organization or the league would try to make that claim. TP is the guy opposing teams attack at the end of games; Manu is the guy to whom the Spurs hand the ball. Trust me, SA knows what these guys are shooting and what their efficiency is. As do opposing teams. So when they do certain things, it's not out of "habit." It's because that's what gives them the best chance for success.

  2. #2
    Veteran InRareForm's Avatar
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    I think 4rth quarter we all know Manu has the ability to hit big 3's and also weave in and out of a tough packed in paint and get ft's.

    Parker can hit clutch outside shots and can drive but lacks the 3 ball unless it is in that corner. He can be limited to driving in the ball if that paint is packed so this gives manu a edge to me.

    To say manu is better than tp, at this point i agree but there is more to it than that. Tt isn't by a wide margin, I think the issue is just who would you rather have the ball in the 2nd half against any defense. It is Manu.

  3. #3
    P Double J R
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    Manu is just a special player. Tony is great at what he does best using his quickness and speed now he is more of a consistent jump shooter. But what we have in Manu is special. Although last night he kept trying to give the ball game away. In my house we have a saying "manu giveth and Manu taketh away" for when he has his bonehead moments and more often than not when he has his moments of brilliance. I still see a lot of John Havlicek in Manu's game. Without the fancy stuff, the guy is relentless even now that he seems to defer to his shooting more than his driving. But he still plays with a reckless abandon and does everything, defense, rebounds, steals, just a regular pest. I said this when he came in in 03 and I'll say now I would pay to watch this guy play in any venue, even the church league.

  4. #4
    Believe. mingus's Avatar
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    i thought Artest did a good job on him for the most part. Manu also had on off game, missing open threes and some easy lay ups. Manu doesn't need to score to play great though, as last night showed. he was creating play for everybody. he has no weakness offensively.

  5. #5
    TheDrewShow is salty lefty's Avatar
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    Ric Bucher has spent too much time on Spurstalk

  6. #6
    Duncan 'til I die admiralfats's Avatar
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    i love tony and think he's actually slightly underrated and underappreciated. however, if we want to talk about fg%, it's not like tony has a huge advantage. if you look at straight up fg%, sure, tony has a 5 or 6 percent lead, which is huge. but when you adjust the field goal percentages, due to the fact that a 3 point make is worth more than a 2 point make, and manu takes and makes a lot more 3s than tony, you find that manu shoots about 1.5% lower than tony. So, there's a truer idea of their separation. between them in fg%.

  7. #7
    Believe.
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    I view Coaches selection for all star reserves as a good basis for "true value". And from all indication Manu was one of the most if not the most consensus pick for all star reserves voted by the coaches. While Tony was not even considered as a top "snub" guys like Ellis and Nash were considered ahead of him, let alone the guards selected by fans and coaches for ALG. Note both fans and coaches did not differentiate between PG and SG. The general consensus of best guards in the west looks like this, in order:

    Kobe
    Manu
    Williams
    CP3
    Westbrook
    Ellis
    Nash
    then Tony..

  8. #8
    Give me 5 ! timaios's Avatar
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    Just what we needed after a great win against the Lakers : a Manu vs Tony thread... again !

    This forum can be so boring at times.

  9. #9
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    There's a much more fundamental issue here.

    Manu Ginobili true shooting percentage = 59.1%
    Tony Parker true shooting percentage = 56.9%

    Manu is more efficient scoring-wise than Tony. Why? Because he takes a lot more 3 point attempts, and 3 point attempts are worth more. If you look at total FG% alone, you are foolishly penalizing a person who takes more 3 point attempts than 2 point attempts even if that person is more efficient at scoring from the field.

    Consider this hypothetical scenario -

    Player A shoots only 2 pointers, shoots 50% from the field, and attempts 20 shots per game. Player A will go 10-20 in any given game and will score 20 points on 20 possessions. FG% = 50

    Player B shoots only 3 pointers, shoots 40% fromt he field, and attempts 20 shots per game. Player B will go 8-20 in any given game and will score 24 points on 20 possessions. FG% = 40

    People who look at field goal percentage in isolation might amateurishly claim that Player A is more efficient because he shoots "50%" from the field. But, in reality, Player A is only scoring 20 points on 20 possessions whereas Player B is scoring 24 points on 20 possessions.

    True shooting percentage corrects for these value (between 2 pointers and 3 pointers) and volume (between 2 point FGA and 3 point FGA) differences.

    Tony barely takes any 3 pointers per game. Nearly 95% of his shots are 2 pointers.

    Nearly half of Manu's shots are 3 pointers, and he makes them at a respectable 35% clip. Of course his overall field goal percentage will be lower because he shoots more 3 pointers.

    That said, the statistics clearly show that Manu is still more efficient at scoring than Tony. His true shooting percentage is higher.

  10. #10
    Believe. ego's Avatar
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    There's a much more fundamental issue here.

    Manu Ginobili true shooting percentage = 59.1%
    Tony Parker true shooting percentage = 56.9%
    FALSE shooting percentage

    It's easier to make a three open shoot than to make a 2PT in the paint for a 6"2 player !

  11. #11
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    I don't respond seriously to no-name's with terrible arguments, sorry.

  12. #12
    Believe. Lady M's Avatar
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    the real différence between Tony and Manu is flopping
    Tony don't have FT because he don't flop

  13. #13
    <><><><><><> ALVAREZ6's Avatar
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    I don't respond seriously to no-name's with terrible arguments, sorry.
    lol

    that really was a terrible take i have trouble believing it was serious

  14. #14
    Veteran Mel_13's Avatar
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    In the same chat, Bucher also said:

    Duncan is, essentially, David West, as in a jump-shooting PF/C. That's not what wins playoff games.

    Back in the summer of 2007, Bucher said Kobe wouldn't remain a Laker unless Jerry West was brought back as GM.

    Bucher says lots of stuff, most of it completely worthless.

  15. #15
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    lol

    that really was a terrible take i have trouble believing it was serious
    for his or her sake, I certainly hope it wasn't a serious take

  16. #16
    Spur-taaaa TDMVPDPOY's Avatar
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    the only thing in common these 2 clowns have is turnovers

  17. #17
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    Who is Ric Bucher?

  18. #18
    The Dude minds DPG21920's Avatar
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    In the same chat, Bucher also said:

    Duncan is, essentially, David West, as in a jump-shooting PF/C. That's not what wins playoff games.

    Back in the summer of 2007, Bucher said Kobe wouldn't remain a Laker unless Jerry West was brought back as GM.

    Bucher says lots of stuff, most of it completely worthless.
    Well, in fairness to him, with how Tim has been playing offensively, he is playing like West. He is choosing to shoot more jumpers. He isn't going inside (for various reasons). He is not even playing any where close to how good David West is offensively.

    Difference is, Tim can go down low (even if he might have declined) and West cannot. So hopefully, we see that in the playoffs.

    But if Ric is just speaking about how Duncan has played offensively this year, then he is correct as far as "style" of play.

    He didn't mention defense however, which is an obvious difference from West.

  19. #19
    Believe. it's me's Avatar
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    In the same chat, Bucher also said:

    Duncan is, essentially, David West, as in a jump-shooting PF/C. That's not what wins playoff games.

    Back in the summer of 2007, Bucher said Kobe wouldn't remain a Laker unless Jerry West was brought back as GM.

    Bucher says lots of stuff, most of it completely worthless.
    Didn't West contributed to the fakers cause with the BS Gasol trade?

  20. #20
    Veteran Mel_13's Avatar
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    Well, in fairness to him, with how Tim has been playing offensively, he is playing like West. He is choosing to shoot more jumpers. He isn't going inside (for various reasons). He is not even playing any where close to how good David West is offensively.

    Difference is, Tim can go down low (even if he might have declined) and West cannot. So hopefully, we see that in the playoffs.

    But if Ric is just speaking about how Duncan has played offensively this year, then he is correct as far as "style" of play.

    He didn't mention defense however, which is an obvious difference from West.
    Bucher is among the most notorious Kobe nut-huggers covering the NBA. I choose not to treat his opinions of the Spurs with anything other than disdain.

  21. #21
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    In the same chat, Bucher also said:

    Duncan is, essentially, David West, as in a jump-shooting PF/C. That's not what wins playoff games.

    Back in the summer of 2007, Bucher said Kobe wouldn't remain a Laker unless Jerry West was brought back as GM.

    Bucher says lots of stuff, most of it completely worthless.
    Does Bucher realize Tim is averaging career low in minutes and usage rate? Bucher acts like he witnesses Tim getting the ball consistently in 4 down scenarios, which simply is not the case.

    Tim hardly gets the ball in scenarios where he can post up, so what makes him believe he can't do this anymore when the sample size is no where near what it used to be?

    Pretty foolish if you ask me, and don't get it twisted-- I'm not implying Tim is what he used to be on the block whatsoever-- I'm just disagreeing with Bucher on the notion that Tim is just a jump shooter now. It's not his fault he has the best supporting cast he's ever had in his career and that the 90% of the play- calls are for the perimeter players.

    FWIW-- Duncan's usage rate is around the same as Shannon Brown's, yet still manages to put up 13-14 ppg. That itself speaks volumes.

    Duncan could still easily average 18-20 points per game if it wasn't for his wonderful supporting cast and his drop in minutes and usage rate. This is a reason why I laugh at expert- ESPN analysts who believe Tim can't be effective enough on the offensive end (for Spurs to win) come playoff time, when his minutes and usage rate will only climb along with his offensive production.
    Last edited by MaNu4Tres; 02-04-2011 at 07:47 PM.

  22. #22
    Believe.
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    There's a much more fundamental issue here.

    Manu Ginobili true shooting percentage = 59.1%
    Tony Parker true shooting percentage = 56.9%

    Manu is more efficient scoring-wise than Tony. Why? Because he takes a lot more 3 point attempts, and 3 point attempts are worth more. If you look at total FG% alone, you are foolishly penalizing a person who takes more 3 point attempts than 2 point attempts even if that person is more efficient at scoring from the field.

    Consider this hypothetical scenario -

    Player A shoots only 2 pointers, shoots 50% from the field, and attempts 20 shots per game. Player A will go 10-20 in any given game and will score 20 points on 20 possessions. FG% = 50

    Player B shoots only 3 pointers, shoots 40% fromt he field, and attempts 20 shots per game. Player B will go 8-20 in any given game and will score 24 points on 20 possessions. FG% = 40

    People who look at field goal percentage in isolation might amateurishly claim that Player A is more efficient because he shoots "50%" from the field. But, in reality, Player A is only scoring 20 points on 20 possessions whereas Player B is scoring 24 points on 20 possessions.

    True shooting percentage corrects for these value (between 2 pointers and 3 pointers) and volume (between 2 point FGA and 3 point FGA) differences.

    Tony barely takes any 3 pointers per game. Nearly 95% of his shots are 2 pointers.

    Nearly half of Manu's shots are 3 pointers, and he makes them at a respectable 35% clip. Of course his overall field goal percentage will be lower because he shoots more 3 pointers.

    That said, the statistics clearly show that Manu is still more efficient at scoring than Tony. His true shooting percentage is higher.
    I don't think you can just look at true shooting percentage either. I think that favors spot-up 3-point shooters. Yes, it's something to look at when deciding the efficiency of two players, but its not the clear-cut deciding factor. I mean J.J. Re has a higher true shooting percentage than both Manu and Parker. Why? Because he hits open three's all day.

  23. #23
    Veteran Sean Cagney's Avatar
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    In the same chat, Bucher also said:

    Duncan is, essentially, David West, as in a jump-shooting PF/C. That's not what wins playoff games.


    ^^^^^^^^^^
    If he means NOW I will let this slide some, but if he meant Tim and his career being this I would personally email him a few times to call him the biggest IDIOT Of all times. Tim can still get down low though, wait playoffs and big games and you will see.

  24. #24
    Believe.
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    In the same chat, Bucher also said:

    Duncan is, essentially, David West, as in a jump-shooting PF/C. That's not what wins playoff games.


    ^^^^^^^^^^
    If he means NOW I will let this slide some, but if he meant Tim and his career being this I would personally email him a few times to call him the biggest IDIOT Of all times. Tim can still get down low though, wait playoffs and big games and you will see.
    Obviously he means now, but he is nowhere near as bad as David West...lol.

  25. #25
    bandwagoner fans suck ducks's Avatar
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    butcher is trying to defend his vote choosing westbrock or williams over tp at allstar break

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