Spurs have best record in NBA b/c Manu and TP finally give a rest to their bull .

[dbreiden83080]

Good point. This should shut those idiots the up. And Manu will be playing ball this summer (Olympic games Qualifiers) and if they do qualify, he will play again next year in London.

So suck it up, assholes.

He'll be 34 soon for 's sake. This guy needs his head examined. You won a Gold Medal.. Enough already..

[dbreiden83080]

Telling these guys they can't play with their international teams is like telling a married man he can't have nights out with his friends anymore.

Yeah but if the married man gets an STD when he goes out of some kind that kinda nixes the deal.. When Tony is too beat to to play worth a damn thanks to this crap.. Well that to me says he should never ever play for anyone other than the Spurs..

[dbreiden83080]

You're a moron.

Way to disect my case.. This is something that may change down the road. Too many owners in hate it.. If you were an owner and that caused your star player to get badly hurt and ruined your season, Wouldn't you be pissed? Good-bye winning season, goodbye ticket sales.. Good bye revenue..

You know making money is the point to all of this right??

[Sense]

Great... you just called out the french and argentinian homers..

[greyforest]

When you make 10 plus mil a year, your obligation is to your team that pays that money. Not your national team. What i find so in offensive about that crap is that if these players had a clause in their deal that said they lose huge portions of their salary if they get hurt playing for their national teams, none of them would ever risk it. It is always about the money with athletes. Tell Tony he loses 50% of his 2012 salary if he gets hurt and see how motivated he is to play for France.. They make it an easy call for these guys because whether they break their necks or come back healthy as can be they still get paid. I hope in the future the international play gets seriously restricted contractually so teams like the Spurs don't have to pay 10 mil to a Tony Parker while he gimps around all year long thanks to his stupid national team..

Yeah, but you have to realize...

Tony Parker is the best basketball player in France.
Manu Ginobili is the best basketball player in Argentina.

If you're gonna build your team with foreign players of this caliber, you have to expect they are going to represent their countries.

Like you say, if the contracts were written differently, maybe you'd have a right to complain.

[Mel_13]

If you were an owner and that caused your star player to get badly hurt and ruined your season, Wouldn't you be pissed?

In Holt's case, not pissed off enough to decline to extend the contracts of Parker and Ginobili last year. The Spurs could have traded either one or allowed them to leave in free agency. They accepted the additional risks associated with NT play when they signed the extensions.

[DMX7]

It would be if there was something in their contracts about it.

You're thinking strictly from a legal perspective. Parker & Ginobili or whoever can do whatever they want, but if they get hurt, it affects the Spurs as a business. That's all I'm saying.

[toki9]

So money/employment should supersede patriotism? So a hired gun should go fight for their employer ahead of his/her country?

[Mel_13]

So money/employment should supersede patriotism? So a hired gun should go fight for their employer ahead of his/her country?

Don't start with the patriotism stuff.

[toki9]

Don't start with the patriotism stuff.

But isn't that what it's about for a lot of these players? And arguments made against NT participation fundamentally reduces to putting extra-contractual "obligation" (can you have extra-contractual obligation? That sounds like a contradiction) ahead of whatever personal feelings the players may have towards their country/etc.

We're basically saying that the foreign players should put our entertainment/bragging right need above their national needs since we're paying them to entertain us. No?

[Mel_13]

But isn't that what it's about for a lot of these players? And arguments made against NT participation fundamentally reduces to putting extra-contractual "obligation" (can you have extra-contractual obligation? That sounds like a contradiction) ahead of whatever personal feelings the players may have towards their country/etc.

We're basically saying that the foreign players should put our entertainment/bragging right need above their national needs since we're paying them to entertain us. No?

No. It's just a red herring that confuses the actual issues at hand.

None of the big name players have ever put country ahead of money. Some have said that they would, but they all manage to sign guaranteed contracts before they play in the summer.

When Tony, Manu, Scola, Dirk, and Pau play this summer they all will do so with 100% financial security. All the risk is assumed by the team owners. (Of course, the owners have signed off on this arrangement in every CBA since 1992).

So patriotism is a false issue until one of the top players participates in a FIBA tournament while he is a free agent. To the best of my recollection, the biggest name that ever risked his financial future to play for his NT was Jorge Garbajosa.

[ElNono]

What i find so in offensive about that crap is that if these players had a clause in their deal that said they lose huge portions of their salary if they get hurt playing for their national teams, none of them would ever risk it. It is always about the money with athletes.

I'm not sure you can generalize about this... it's not like players can't be multi-millionaires unless they play in the NBA. As I'm sure there are players that are in it for the money, I'm sure there's plenty that are in it for the glory.

[ElNono]

I don't think patriotism is the word, tbh... I think it's the pursuit of winning at every level... these are guys that are genuinely top talent and would never be without some ball club handing a contract their way, NBA or not.

[ElNono]

One example would be Manu having to leave money on the table with his rookie salary in the NBA for the chance to play in this league. Some will say it's an investment in the future, but professional sports are always a risky gamble. Injuries, adaptation... it's a big gamble that's hard to justify for somebody in it just for the money...

[toki9]

No. It's just a red herring that confuses the actual issues at hand.

None of the big name players have ever put country ahead of money. Some have said that they would, but they all manage to sign guaranteed contracts before they play in the summer.

When Tony, Manu, Scola, Dirk, and Pau play this summer they all will do so with 100% financial security. All the risk is assumed by the team owners. (Of course, the owners have signed off on this arrangement in every CBA since 1992).

So patriotism is a false issue until one of the top players participates in a FIBA tournament while he is a free agent. To the best of my recollection, the biggest name that ever risked his financial future to play for his NT was Jorge Garbajosa.

Actually, signing guaranteed contracts before playing isn't an indication that they're not willing to leave money on the table. It just means that they haven't had to.

[jjktkk]

The inconveniance of foreign players player for their country is not going away anytime soon, so I don't see why we need another Parker/Ginoboli shouldn't play for their country thread.

[Mel_13]

Actually, signing guaranteed contracts before playing isn't an indication that they're not willing to leave money on the table. It just means that they haven't had to.

Which is exactly what I said. Convenient, though, that all the big names have been under contract when these tourneys roll around.

Every time this issue comes up, someone says "why should these guys be expected to put their employer before their country?". It's not a valid question when none of these players have put their country ahead of their own financial interests.

As I've said many times on this board, this is an issue that has been settled through negotiated agreements between the NBA and FIBA and between the NBA and the NBA Players Association. Rich guys with high powered lawyers made those agreements and those agreements say that NBA players can play in FIBA events. Period.

[toki9]

Which is exactly what I said. Convenient, though, that all the big names have been under contract when these tourneys roll around.

Convenient, yes. Proof, no--which is what you were seemingly getting at.

[Slomo]

Which is exactly what I said. Convenient, though, that all the big names have been under contract when these tourneys roll around.

Every time this issue comes up, someone says "why should these guys be expected to put their employer before their country?". It's not a valid question when none of these players have put their country ahead of their own financial interests.

As I've said many times on this board, this is an issue that has been settled through negotiated agreements between the NBA and FIBA and between the NBA and the NBA Players Association. Rich guys with high powered lawyers made those agreements and those agreements say that NBA players can play in FIBA events. Period.

- Players from every league play in FIBA events, why should the NBA be an exception?

- The players were developed within the local national organization and clubs. If they are good enough they go on to play for the NBA, who does not pay any retribution to the local club/organization (OK a small amount that is completely regulated by NBA rules), unlike when they go play for other leagues. So there is a financial "debt" from the NBA too.

- And finally the players receive the OK from their NBA clubs only if they have special insurances taken out by the national organization for the duration of the tournament. So if the player is injured and can not play the club is fully compensated - the owners are not losing money.

[Slomo]

BTW are you guys OK with American NBA players playing for team USA?

[Mel_13]

Convenient, yes. Proof, no--which is what you were seemingly getting at.

That's how you read it. I wasn't seemingly getting at anything. What I was getting at was stated quite clearly.

My point is that the patriotism stuff is irrelevant to this discussion. The issue is governed by binding agreements between the parties involved.

[Mel_13]

- Players from every league play in FIBA events, why should the NBA be an exception?

I didn't state or imply that should be. Quite the contrary.

- The players were developed within the local national organization and clubs. If they are good enough they go on to play for the NBA, who does not pay any retribution to the local club/organization (OK a small amount that is completely regulated by NBA rules), unlike when they go play for other leagues. So there is a financial "debt" from the NBA too.

Not sure where you're going here, Slomo, but this is not a subject I've ever addressed.

- And finally the players receive the OK from their NBA clubs only if they have special insurances taken out by the national organization for the duration of the tournament. So if the player is injured and can not play the club is fully compensated - the owners are not losing money.

1. All my posts on this issue, including all those in this thread, have supported the right of players to participate in FIBA events. I'm not sure why you're trying to convince me to take a position I already hold.

2. Insurance covers the player's salary, it doesn't replace the player's performance. Losing a premier player leads to losses in revenue (playoff gate receipts) that insurance doesn't begin to cover.

[Mel_13]

BTW are you guys OK with American NBA players playing for team USA?

Nationality has nothing to with it. All NBA players have a right to play on their NTs.

[DAF86]

great theory. problem is, the 03/05/07 championships all came in years were anywhere from 1 to 2 of the big 3 were in summer compe ion (including duncan).

then there is the fact that the last 2 championships were won by a team with its two best players (kobe and pau) playing international ball.

so much for that.

That's pretty much thread/

[Mel_13]

That's pretty much thread/

Not so much.