"Hapless"?
I do not think that word means what you think it means.
Now the team that traded away a three-time Finals MVP for loose change and pocket lint? Now that's hapless.
IMO TMac is at least one level ahead Dirk, since a long time ago I hadn't seen that superiority in a particular one on one duel like the one seen in Hou-Dallas series, where TMac showed he can't only score, but also be a great defender (He guarded Dirk in agreat way, don't u think)?
Pop does have the reigns on the team, but I also think the players have to have the confidence and at ude to buy into it. Manu could have easily ed in media when he got benched for Barry or even demanded a trade, but he doesn't seek that sort of individual attention. Pop is great at selling his philosphy to his players, but he has the type of players who don't care about themselves as much as they do the team and the championships.
Manu is definitely top 5 THIS year. Manu like before is not first option throughout the year.He was in many instances the 2 or 3 option.
During the play-offs he has taken it to a whole other level where he IS
top 2 . He is right there with Tim in scoring,FTA,he leads the Spurs in 3 pta and %,steals,and is right there with Tony in assists.
He is not 1st option like Kobe,Ray,Iverson,or TMac.
Manu is a creator,distributor,and is totally unselfish. All of the above have to shoot alot of balls to score high.Ginobili is effecient as they come.
Hey he got the GOLD doesn't he? He beat all those guys Duncan & Co in Athens. He score something like 28 points against the US in their victory.
Iverson did NOTHING and he had Duncan on his side! AND Ginobili had Scola.
Yes the elusive Gold medal...I guess Carlos Arroya who worked the US team is all NBA as well....
That's are really good way to put things, I totally agree.
Manu is not a top 5 NBA player, but he's definitely up there. And Tim makes anyone better, but I can't see Manu failing on any team he was put on.
Depends on how many "levels" you have. Yes, TMac outplayed Dirk in their series, but I think talent wise they are pretty close to each other.
The whole Tim makes anyone better is not entirely true. Last year noone was made better.Three years the Lakers went to win the finals noone was made better.
Then enters the side kick=Manu. Even Pippen couldn't make it to the Finals those two years Jordan was out.More recently Kobe without Shaq.
If anything Manu has to be a top 5 sidekick FOR SURE!
Duncan & Manu
Shaq(healthy) & Wade
Amare & Nash
Ming & TMac
He compliments Duncan alot more than Parker (this year). Parker hasn't peaked,I hope.
I put Manu in the top 5 at shooting guard but only if T. Mac and L. James are at SF.
Top 5 1-2 punch...yes for sure....Spurs are more of a team than just 2 players...man they have impressed me in the finals.
I love Manu but he is not a Top 5 player
I agree. I think he STILL isn't top 5. Let's see how he keeps playing. I don't see his ceiling still, so if he continues improving, well, I don't know. He has been improving since he came to SA.
Timmy D may be a real help for manu, but also a shadow over him. In any other team, without TD, Manu may have stepped way more. Take the Argentinean Team in the olympics for example. 29 points against US, and ok, US team wasn't a of a team, but still... iverson, allen, TD... Larry Brown and Pop, well...
We might never know, because Manu feels ok playing as he plays now, in this great team.
I guess we'll have to keep enjoying our team, and just let the individualities besides. Just like our players do.
enjoy
Medvedenko...
Two questions...
1) What happened to your "Slava Hot Like Lava" slogan, I thought it was "true" to you?
2) Why do you have your team as the Pistons and not the Lakers...?
Ha, I didn't even notice that.
Pretty weak, Med.
I actually disagree with you Matt.
Without getting into salary issues, trades, cap, etc etc,
and assuming this scenario is realistic, your reasoning assumes that you build teams like legos, and the players' expected performances are exactly or similar as they are with their current teams. Nothing further from the truth.
It goes along the lines of... Ray Allen is a great shooter, we play inside out, when other teams double team TD, Ray Allen will make them pay with his jumpshot. He would be awesome!
I heard similar things when Brent Barry became a Spurs not so long ago (and I am not comparing them, but I hope you catch my gist). Brent is a very intelligent basketball player with a soft touch and good guy. It was supposed that Tim Duncan would make him even better, right? All his numbers are down, he couldn't adapt to the current Spurs' system. What makes you believe any player can play under the current system and conditions?
What most people fail to realize is that Ray Allen needs the ball in his hands to be effective and a large number of FGA/g. In the last 3 years Allen has taken:
year FGA/g FG% 3P%
02-03 18.17 .439 .377
03-04 18.16 .440 .392
04-05 19.15 .428 .376
In this playoffs, Ray has taken:
year FGA/g FG% 3P%
04-05 19.54 .474 .378
If you expect Ray Allen to take a lesser role, you don't know him. I do not expect him to significantly reduce his touches. This implies two things...
1) Either Tony Parker drastically reduce the number of touches he gets.
2) The Spurs completely change their offense (increase the pace) to allow an increase on the number attempt per game (we become a running team).
Tim takes 18.22 FGA/g and Tony 16.5 FGA/g. They both take the most FGA/g on the Spurs team. People still don't realize that Manu is having this increadible run while taking only 12.5 FGA/g and without significantly changing the Spurs offense. This is what is the most remarkable aspect of his performance, and I can guarantee that NO other player in the league can perform as well as he had in the playoffs with the limited touches and role given to him by Pop. NONE!
Perhaps true in offense, but what about deffense? Isn't TMac a WAAAAY better defensive player? shouldn't that fact: beeing at least as good in offense (IMO, TMac is better) and beeing much better in deffense...shouldn't it grant TMac a clear edge?
T-Mac is probably a marginally better defensive player over his career, but neither one has been any great shakes.
If Dirk actually starts applying himself like he says he's going to (and like AJ promises he has to if he wants PT), then I think he's got the talent to be a decent defender, and probably better overall than T-Mac.
But really, those guys play two different positions, so I don't completely get the point of comparing them.
Excellent post. That's the thing--Manu is efficient and effective.
PS Violent Kitten is a boy?
Manu is top 5 guard in the league. No doubt
Manu is quickly approaching elite level status. I'm not sold he's quite there yet, but it's awfully close. With the way positions have been blurred in today's NBA, it's often times hard to categorize and even rank players by position. Is LeBron a shooting guard or a small forward? Is Andrei Kirilenko a small forward or a power forward? Is Allen Iverson a point or a shooting guard? Is Duncan a center or power forward?
I think it's especially difficult to distinguish between wing players these days. Many of the top level wing players play BOTH the shooting guard and small forward spots. Vince, LeBron, T-Mac, Pierce, Jefferson, Artest, Maggette, Manu. In reality and in their respective teams' systems, the 2 and the 3 positions are basically interchangeable.
Ranking players by position is another result of our Fantasy Sports generation. When basketball first became heavily popular, with the exception of the position "center," it was just about "players." Jerry West and Oscar Robertson and Clyde were not designated "point guard" or "shooting guard." They were just "GUARDS." And, even in the 80s, players began to buck the trends or conformed notions of positions. Magic Johnson was a 6-foot-8 point guard who often defended the small forward position. Bernard King was a power forward who shot 12 foot baseline jumpshots. Larry Bird acted as a "point forward." MJ and Pippen were the 2 and 3 in the Bulls' offense but both did the majority of the ball handling and brought up the ball, while the "point guard" (Kerr, Paxson, and Armstrong) were spot up shooters. Kevin Garnett and Lamar Odom can play ALL FIVE positions.
I know I got off on a tagent. But, my point is that MANU GINOBILI is just a PLAYER. He's amazing. And, if you can just appreciate him for that and for being a winner, a leader, and just a truly gifted athlete, does ranking him against T-Mac, Kobe, Iverson, et al really matter?
Nice post JamStone.
Despite playing different positions TMac was able to guard Dirk quite well...did you see the games? it was noticeable IMO.
Dirk can promise a lot, but he never showed to be a good deffensive player, while TMac has already showed he can play defense, and he can be at least as good as Dirk in offense...that's why I consider TMac a clearly better player, until Dirk proves he can play D, at least.
I don't agree with the way you count "touches".
While Manu shoots only 12.5 FG/g, he also shoots a lot of free throws and when you shoot free throws you are also giving back the ball to the opponent.
That's why I think you should use more point per possession stats than points per shots. Manu is shooting a lot of free throws and that's one reason why he has such an amazing point per shot average.
ps are you an anglo?
I'm just playing with you changing my team from La to Detroit...just to add some piss into the fire....I still bleed purple and gold...oh and slava is hot like lava....redemption year 2005-2006
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