I just want to add to this discussion that 10 is an arbitrary number. Why do we insist on picking 10? Well, I know the answer is that humans are cognitively biased towards grouping things in multiples of 5 or 10 because we have 5 fingers on each hand. Still, at an objective level, it is arbitrary. When I try to make a short list of the greatest basketball players, I inevitably end up with 12, and I can't eliminate any of them. My fairly uncontroversial top 12 would consist of (in alphabetical order):
Abdul-Jabbar, K.
Bird, L.
Bryant, K.
Chamberlain, W.
Duncan, T.
Erving, J.
Johnson, M.
Jordan, M.
Olajuwon, H.
O'Neal, S.
Robertson, O.
Russell, B.
I would have to say that Kareem was the greatest player of all time. First, in principle, it should be a post player. I believe that the post player is the most important role in basketball (and there is evidence to support this). Kareem is probably the best offensive post player ever, and one of the best defensive post players. Second, he was one of the most successful players ever in terms of championships (both college and pro level). Third, he had one of the longest careers in NBA history, and it was great beginning to end. And fourth, his style of play was a great combination of power and finesse. He really had a complete set of skills.
I don't know, man. It's close, but you can't say it's clearly Hakeem.
Duncan is a better passer, he has a better outside shot (Hakeem didn't have a go-to outside shot like the left-wing bank shot), and he possibly has more low-post moves. Especially later in his career, Tim kept adding more and more to his post game, it's just amazing.
Proud of you to be ok with Dirk being nowhere on that list or even close to it tbh.
dirk is 12-20 all time though
except the part where none of that was true. hakeem didn't have a bankshot but he still had a good 15-18 footer, more post moves than anyone in nba history duncan included, and it's debatable to call him a better passer, i think its more like they were equal passers.
it's like he thought he had a burn then realized how re ed his post was.
defensively, you can't even compare the 2. while duncan was every bit the help defender hakeem was, as a man defender they are not even in the same ball park. hakeem routinely guarded the opposing teams best big head to head while duncan never guarded amare or dirk straight up in his prime. well once he did, and amare averaged 37 ppg that series.
37 ppg
I thought he was a defensive anchor
sons anyone who put Kobe in their top 10 really needs to educate themselves on the game of basketball and stop buying into everything ESPN and the NBA tells them.
but the spurs won that series! It was all apart of the plan.
sons anyone who put Kobe in their top 10 really needs to educate themselves on the game of basketball and stop buying into everything ESPN and the NBA tells them.
I've done these before and I can't remember what I've posted then. But let's see how I would rank it as of today...
1. Jordan
2. Wilt
3. Magic
4. Kareem
5. Hakeem
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Moses
10. Kobe/Russell/Oscar
I can't really make a decision on #10. Toss-up among those three guys. I know in recent years, I had Kobe right at the cusp of the top 10 somewhere in the 11-15 range. I think him cracking the top 5 in all-time scoring helps his case. But I do still think there's an argument that he's just outside the top 10. I believe my top 9, with the exception of Shaq and Hakeem, have multiple League MVPs as well as a Finals MVP. And like many, I think Shaq probably deserved more than just 1 League MVP.
People often criticize Kobe for not being able to carry a team without a great big man. I think a similar criticism can be made with Kareem. The season after Oscar retired, the Bucks had a losing record. And his first season with the Lakers, they also had a losing record. I do think Kareem gets overrated a little bit because of his ulative career numbers. But that's for playing for so damn long. Kareem didn't win a ring without either Oscar or Magic. But that's never mentioned as a criticism. And for being such an imposingly large figure, after around the age of the 32-33, he became a very pedestrian rebounder and defender despite still playing big minutes and having enough energy to still put up 20+ points for the next 5 or so seasons. He still ranks very high on the list, but at least for me, I don't go automatically to him after Michael. I even had a tough time putting him as high as I did.
Last edited by JamStone; 02-12-2012 at 10:16 PM.
Why would Duncan wander out to the perimeter to guard Dirk?
His point is that Hakeem would have been capable of it.
Duncan isn't.
Hakeem>Duncan, .
And played against a bunch of 6'5" honkies like Dolph Schayes
a 6'7" Jew playing making the HOF as a center in the Russell era and people seriously trying to take that era seriously
My list:
1) MJ
2) Kareem
3) Magic
4) Bird
5) Shaq
6) Hakeem
7) Duncan
8) Wilt
9) Oscar
10) Moses Malone
I never said otherwise, you commie got.
1.Jordan
2.Kobe
3.Kareem
4.Bird
5.Aids
6.Shaq
7.Hakeem
8.Wilt
9.Payton
10.Dirk
Great list.
Non sequitur - for even if that were true (and it is merely an assumption), that alone would not be enough to make Hakeem overall greater than Tim.
Here's what makes Hakeen greater than Duncan:
Better defensive player.
Better scorer.
If you plug Hakeem into any Duncan championship team, he can replicate what Duncan gives you.
Won't work other way around.
Hakeem>Duncan.
I don't find any of these criticisms to be particularly damaging to Kareem. First of all, every great player needs a partner. It's a team game, after all. The reasoning that most people apply is that perimeter players need a post player. I think your reverse reasoning applies to some extent, but to a lesser extent.
It seems like you are using his longevity against him, which is amazing! I view his longevity as an extra component of his greatness. Would you rather your franchise player last for 10 years or 20? Longevity is really, really important.
He didn't rebound as well after the age of 32 because...he was over the age of 32.
That's not clear at all. Duncan has a clutch factor that Hakeem didn't necessarily demonstrate. Duncan has made so many game-winning or game-changing plays in his career that were overlooked. I don't follow your reasoning there, and it certainly isn't obvious.
Hakeem had one off the charts playoff run.......seems like that's all many remember
2mvps>1
4 les>2
Edge Duncan.
Imo.
Only doofuses do Raw ring count and media awards.
Stats, teammates, all-star selections are all close up and down their careers.
MVPs and les should be given their due weight.
Imo.
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