Marshall: Moral Cowardice Has Guided W All Along

[Yonivore]

"You are an idiot to not think that was brave. Doing that lead to many many American soldiers dying when they were ambushed."

1) No American solder was killed during that incident, so do we really know how "dangerous" or how "brave" he was? No.
2) It's not hard to walk tall when you've got your buddies laying down a curtain of lead all around you. It's also hard to execute an ambush against someone
3) I personally doubt that Kerry would have done it if he thought there were any risk whatsoever.
4) Why does he tell a different version that the After Action Report he wrote?
5) Heroes don't talk about being heroes.

[DeSPURado]

You think he knew there was no one around the corner waiting for him? Thats a pretty dumbass assumption to ever make in combat.

[Yonivore]

I'm betting his crew had put so much lead through that hootch by the time he got there, there were dead dragonflies laying around.

C'mon, if the fleeing kid didn't get hit by saturation fire it's only because of his proximity to a pursuing Kerry.

[DeSPURado]

And you're basing this idea on what? If they were hitting the forest while Kerry was there they would have hit him too (the cover fire disapears when you go in.) Vietnam was known for having snipers around every corner, not to mention fox holes, which can't be hit with cover fire. In addition it is almost a universal tactic to use snipers to cover a retreat. Are you this interested in smearing Kerry that you think he could just assume he could take a merry jaunt into the foliage?

[Yonivore]

"And you're basing this idea on what?"

From the AAR:

"Officer-in-charge, LTjg Kerry, jumped ashore and gave pursuit while other units saturated area with fire and beached placing assault parties ashore.

The word while.

[DeSPURado]

Wow you really addressed all of those points I brought up. Use your head. This is Bull .

[Yonivore]

"Are you this interested in smearing Kerry that you think he could just assume he could take a merry jaunt into the foliage?"

I'm just curious as to why his "war story" varies from his Official After Action Report...that's all.

[DeSPURado]

You're changing the subject is what you are doing

[Yonivore]

Yonivore's maiden post in this thread:

"Do you believe it was disingenous for him to write in his biographical "Tour of Duty," "of staring down a suspected guerilla who was about to fire upon Kerry's swift boat. It was kill or be killed,..."

Yonivore's last post in this thread:

"I'm just curious as to why his "war story" varies from his Official After Action Report...that's all."

Seems fairly consistent to me. I'm curious about the discrepancy in his own two version of events. I think you're changing the subject, DeSPURate.

[DeSPURado]

"of staring down a suspected guerilla who was about to fire upon Kerry's swift boat. It was kill or be killed,..."

Perhaps becuase you are talking about the story in two different moments in time, the vietcong soldier was exchanging fire with those on the swiftboat. The swiftboat crew gains the upperhand. Kerry persues the enemy.

[Yonivore]

Actually, all the small arms fire was over and there's no suggestion in the report the VC that sprang up fired on PCF94 -- he wasn't carrying small arms. Sorry, that doesn't wash.

[DeSPURado]

First let me ask, are we talking about the bronze star or the silver one?

[Yonivore]

I think this is where he got the silver star

[DeSPURado]

Heres the transcript of it:

JOHN FORBES KERRY

LIEUTENANT JUNIOR GRADE

UNITED STATES NAVAL RESERVE

for service as set forth in the following:

CITATION

"For con uous gallantry and intrepidity in action while serving as Officer in Charge of United States Navy Patrol Craft Fast 94 and officer in Tactical Command of an operation in the Republic of Vietnam. On 28 February 1969, Patrol Craft Fast 23, 43 and 94, in conjunction with Underwater Demolition Team 13 and Vietnamese Regional and Popular Forces personnel, conducted an operation on the Ca Mau Peninsula as part of Operation SEA LORDS. While transiting the Bay Hap River en route to an insertion point along the Dong Cung River, these craft with thirty Regional/Popular Force personnel embarked in each unit came under heavy enemy small arms fire from the river banks. The Officer in Tactical Command, Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY directed his units to turn to the beach and charge the Viet Cong positions. Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY expertly directed the fire of his craft at the fleeing enemy while simultaneously coordinating the insertion of the embarked troops. While the Regional and Popular Forces conducted an area sweep, Patrol Craft Fast 43 remained on station to provide fire support and Patrol Craft Fast 23 and 94 moved upstream to investigate an area from which gunshots were coming. Arriving at the area, Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY's craft received a B-40 rocket close aboard. Once again Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY ordered his units to charge the enemy positions and summoned Patrol Craft Fast 43 to the area to provide additional firepower. Patrol Craft Fast 94 then beached in the center of the enemy positions and an enemy soldier sprang up from his position not ten feet from Patrol Craft Fast 94 and fled. Without hesitation Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY leaped ashore, pursued the man behind a hootch and killed him, capturing a B-40 rocket launcher with a round in the chamber. Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY then led an assault party and conducted a sweep of the area while the Patrol Craft Fast continued to provide fire support. After the enemy had been completely routed, all personnel returned to the Patrol Craft Fast to withdraw from the area. While backing off the beach, these units again came under a hail of fire, this time from the opposite river bank. Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY immediately coordinated the firepower of his units and supressed the enemy fire. Later, after disembarking personnel, and while exiting from the Bay Hap River, the Patrol Craft Fast were again under fire. Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY immediately maneuvered his craft through several strafing runs which completely silenced the enemy. As a result of this operation, ten Viet Cong were killed and one wounded with no friendly casualties. In addition, numerous sampans, structures and bunkers were destroyed as well as confiscation of substantial quan ies of combat essential supplies. Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY's devotion to duty, courage under fire, outstanding leadership, and exemplary professionalism directly contributed to the success of this operation and were in keeping with the highest traditions of the Unites States Naval Service."

Link

PDF copy of it.

[Yonivore]

Which one of the three versions is that?

[Yonivore]

Oh yeah, the high irregulary John Lehman version. You know, the one Lehman says he didn't sign or authorize or even knows why it would have been on his desk.

[Tommy Duncan]

She also said the docs were fake, dan. That's the issue that matters here. Who tried to influence a presidential election with fake docs and why won't CBS simply admit that they are fake?

[DeSPURado]

I also see the name John Holland on the do ent.

[Yonivore]

Signed by John Lehman...when, exactly, was he Secretary of the Navy?

[DeSPURado]

Check again in the PDF file John Holland is one signator on the first do ent. Lehman on what appears to be on an identical second copy of it.

[Yonivore]

Why are there two?

[Tommy Duncan]

bump

[Yonivore]

I know that John Lehman wants to know why there are two.