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  1. #1
    Nbadan
    Guest
    Why W skirting his Texas Guard Reserve duty was a big deal in 1972 and why it still is today...

    The new revelations about President Bush’s shirked Air National Guard service will continue the campaign debate about physical bravery. But with Bush, the real issue isn’t physical bravery but moral cowardice.

    We have a more immediate sense of what physical bravery and cowardice are. In fact, when we speak of bravery and cowardice, the physical variety is almost always what we’re talking about. It’s whether or not you can charge an enemy position while you’re being fired at. It’s whether you’re immobilized by the fear of death.

    Moral cowardice is more complex. A moral coward is someone who lacks the courage to tell the truth, to accept responsibility, to demand accountability, to do what’s right when it’s not the easy thing to do, to clean up his or her own messes. Perhaps we could say that moral bravery is having both the courage of your convictions as well as the courage of your misdeeds.

    On the balance sheet of moral bravery — as opposed to physical bravery — John Kerry and George W. Bush were about as far apart as you could be on Vietnam. On the one hand, you have Kerry, who already had doubts about whether we should be fighting in Vietnam before he went but put his life on the line anyway. On the other hand, you have Bush, who supported the war, which means he believed the goal was worth the cost in American lives. Only, not his life. He believed others should go, just not him.

    That is almost the definition of moral cowardice. And it’s a trait he continues to display as he smears other people’s meritorious service (John McCain, Kerry, et al.) without taking responsibility for what he’s doing. He gets other people to do his dirty work for him.

    What’s gone unsaid through most of the campaign is that the president’s moral cowardice is a big part of why we’re now bogged down in Iraq. It’s a key reason why 1,000 Americans have died there. Bush has set the tone for this administration, and his moral cowardice permeates it.

    Consider only the most obvious examples.

    The president didn’t think he could convince the public of the merits of his reasons for going to war. So he and his key advisers lied to them. He greatly exaggerated what was thought to be the evidence of weapons of mass destruction and completely manufactured a connection between Iraq and al Qaeda. He couldn’t get the country behind him on the up-and-up. So he took the easy way out; he took a shortcut; he deceived them. And now the country is paying a terrible price for it.

    He and his advisers knew that if they leveled with the public about the costs of war — in dollars, years, soldiers — he’d have a very hard time convincing them. So he didn’t level with them. He took the easy way out.

    The sort of forward planning that would have made a big difference in postwar Iraq was scuttled or derided because it made the job of selling the war harder. Those who sounded the alarm had their careers cut short.

    Once we were in Iraq and it was clear that we had been wrong about the weapons of mass destruction — a judgment that’s been clear for more than a year — the president refused to admit it. And he still hasn’t. A year and a half after we invaded Iraq and he still can’t level with the American people about this simple and now obvious reality. He still relies on his vice president to try to fool people into thinking Saddam Hussein was tied to al Qaeda and the Sept. 11 attacks.

    More important, once it became clear that the president’s plans for postwar Iraq were producing poor results, he refused to shift policy or to reshuffle his team. He refused to demand accountability from his own team because of how it would have reflected on him. He has preferred to continue on with demonstrably failed policies because to do otherwise would be to admit he’d made a mistake and open himself up to all the political fallout that would entail. That was something he wasn’t willing to do.

    The stubborn refusal ever to change course, which the president tries to pass off as a sign of leadership or devotion to principle, is actually an example of his cowardice.

    For the same reasons, he runs from soldiers’ funerals as if they were burying victims of the plague — because it’s the easy way out. If there’s a problem, he denies it or finds someone else to take the fall for him.

    Everyone has these tendencies in their measure. No one is perfect. But they define Bush.

    The same sort of moral cowardice that led him to support the Vietnam War but decide it wasn’t for him, run companies into the ground and let others pay the bill, play gutter politics but run for the hills when someone asked him to say it to their face — those are the same qualities that led the president to lie the country into war, to fail to prepare for the aftermath and then to refuse to take responsibility for any of it when the bill started to come due.
    The Hill

  2. #2
    Yonivore
    Guest
    The problem Mr. Marshall has with trying to portray something the President did in 1972 as a "big deal" is that the President's opponent engaged in a couple of things that are probably much bigger.

    1) Shooting a wounded, fleeing VC teenager in the back and accepting a Silver Star for something for which he should have been ashamed.

    2) Returning from Vietnam, when the bandaid box was empty, and proceeding to act in traitorous ways that gave aid and comfort to the enemy and heaped harm and misery on our soldiers, particularly those that were in P.O.W. camps.

    The questionable period of President Bush's Air National Guard service was at a time the military was scaling back and winding down the Vietnam War. As has been said by the head of the National Guard (at the time) as well as others, they were looking for places to put the leftover pilots and many ended up in desk jobs...early discharges did the Guard a favor.

    This is why all but the rabid left could care less about President Bush's Guard service. But, don't worry, the Swiftees are going to rake Kerry over the coals for his traitorous behavior during the same period.

    Have fun with it guys!

  3. #3
    Tommy Duncan
    Guest
    On the balance sheet of moral bravery — as opposed to physical bravery — John Kerry and George W. Bush were about as far apart as you could be on Vietnam. On the one hand, you have Kerry, who already had doubts about whether we should be fighting in Vietnam before he went but put his life on the line anyway. On the other hand, you have Bush, who supported the war, which means he believed the goal was worth the cost in American lives. Only, not his life. He believed others should go, just not him.

    Oh please. Kerry joined the friggin' Navy Reserves. If he was really gung ho about fighting in a land battle in SE Asia would have have done that? Of course not. How exactly is John Forbes Kerry not the son of privilege who also tried to find his own way out of being drafted into the Army and seeing combat?

    I'm not going to get into questioning what he did while he was in combat because I think that's dishonorable. But to paint Kerry as something other than a 'fortunate son' who originally sought to avoid being drafted into combat is absurd.

  4. #4
    Yonivore
    Guest
    From the Boston Globe:
    "'I didn't really want to get involved in the war,' Kerry said in a little-noticed contribution to a book of Vietnam reminiscences published in 1986. 'When I signed up for the swift boats, they had very little to do with the war. They were engaged in coastal patrolling and that's what I thought I was going to be doing.'"
    Ooops!

    Plan B: Rack up some PH's and get the out as fast as you can.

  5. #5
    Tommy Duncan
    Guest
    Such moral bravery.

  6. #6
    Spurminator
    Guest
    It's a big deal because it's Election season, and Bush is a Republican who talks like a cowboy.

  7. #7
    Yonivore
    Guest
    "The Harvard Crimson newspaper followed a youthful Mr Kerry in Boston as he campaigned for Congress for the first time in 1970. In the course of a lengthy article, 'John Kerry: A Navy Dove Runs for Congress', published on February 18, the paper reported: 'When he approached his draft board for permission to study for a year in Paris, the draft board refused and Kerry decided to enlist in the Navy.'"
    Another hole in his "voluntarily" going to Vietnam story.

    The facts are the both President Bush and Senator Kerry volunteered for military service. President Bush went to the Air National Guard -- I don't know of any deferrment attempts -- and Senator Kerry to the Navy, after being denied a deferrment.

    President Bush, by all accounts, was heavily involved in his training and racked up many times more than the necessary points, required by the Guard, for his first 4 years (while the war was raging)...and, had he been called to combat, he says he would have gone willingly. The last two years of his service, when the war was winding down and they were putting pilots at desks, he priorities changed and he became politically active.

    Senator Kerry, by his own accounts, sought Swiftboat duty because he, mistakenly, believed it offered the best opportunity for staying out of combat. Once, it became apparent he'd ed up, he began getting wreckless and hurting himself.

    And, on top of that, the one experience he points to as being an example of the dangers he faced (where he "earned" a Silver Star), the AAR (which he wrote) is at odds with his contemporaneous accounts.

    Instead of coming face to face with a bazooka weilding VC soldier -- in a "kill or be killed" moment, he chased a frightened, injured, VC teenager behind a hootch and executed him. Wow! What bravery. Oh, and if you read the AAR, he did this while everyone else on the Swiftboat was saturating the area with cover fire.

    Well, after getting his 3rd PH and heading home, he decides to start lying about all the stuff going on in Vietnam before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Testimony that was used to torture confessions out of P.O.W.'s back in Hanoi.

    The guy is s .

  8. #8
    Hook Dem
    Guest
    "It's a big deal because it's Election season, and Bush is a Republican who talks like a cowboy." ........As opposed to Kerry who talks like a freakin Baaaastonian !

  9. #9
    Nbadan
    Guest
    1) Shooting a wounded, fleeing VC teenager in the back and accepting a Silver Star for something for which he should have been ashamed.
    That's not the way his crewmates who were there said it happened. All of them have said that Kerry chased a Viet-Cong that was carrying a loaded rocket-launcher and could have turned around and fired on Kerry's Swift boat at any time. At least, Kerry had a courage to chase the V.C.. The only thing W. chased was a Margarita with a beer.

  10. #10
    Nbadan
    Guest
    Returning from Vietnam, when the bandaid box was empty, and proceeding to act in traitorous ways that gave aid and comfort to the enemy and heaped harm and misery on our soldiers, particularly those that were in P.O.W. camps.
    Nice, never mind that after the war the Nixon and then the Ford administration left a bunch of those POWs in Vietnam to rot in , but hey, because we can use them politically against Kerry, we care about them now.

  11. #11
    Yonivore
    Guest
    First of all, Nixon and Ford aren't running this year and yeah, I've got a bone with all politicians that dragged their heels over the P.O.W./M.I.A. issue.

    Second, The VC teenager was already wounded by a 60 cal round to the leg. I seriously doubt he was interested in turning and firing anything.

    Read Kerry's After Action Report...He tells the true story there. It bears no resemblance to the yarn he spun in his book or that he's spewing on the campaign trail. No wonder he didn't release "that" particular piece of his memorabilia.

  12. #12
    Nbadan
    Guest
    Second, The VC teenager was already wounded by a 60 cal round to the leg. I seriously doubt he was interested in turning and firing anything.
    How do you know? Were you there? Oh, that's right we are in Neocon World where Ideology and speculation is more important than reality and fact.

  13. #13
    Tommy Duncan
    Guest
    Oh man, I can't wait until some "fake but accurate" memos appear in this little dispute...

  14. #14
    Yonivore
    Guest
    Well, because the After Action Report says he was wounded with a 60 cal and the After Action Report says he ran away towards a hootch and the After Action Report doesn't say he ever attempted to turn and fire and the After Action Report says the rest of the crew saturated the shore with cover fire while John Way...I'm sorry, John Kerry chased the kid behind the hootch and shot him.

    Oh, yeah, the AAR was written by John Kerry.

  15. #15
    exstatic
    Guest
    I seriously doubt he was interested in turning and firing anything.
    Oh, I see. Somehow It's OK to shoot a bunch of yahoos waving a flag around a burning empty Humvee in Iraq, but an armed VC, fleeing or not, is not a target. Your hypocrisy is monumental, Yoni.

  16. #16
    Yonivore
    Guest
    We're talking about Kerry's lying...not my alleged "hypocricy." (which I'm not going to be baited into discussing at the expense of this point about Kerry -- start another thread if you want to discuss a comparison between the two incidents).

  17. #17
    Nbadan
    Guest
    Me thinks that Yoni's hypocrisy and his false accusation about Kerry lying are to inter-twined to be separated.

  18. #18
    Yonivore
    Guest
    Okay, so that's what you think. Care to continue the discussion or are you so muddled that you can't?

  19. #19
    Tommy Duncan
    Guest
    danny boy, relax. Maybe Yoni is just being "fake but accurate".

  20. #20
    Yonivore
    Guest
    What Nbadanallah failed to notice earlier is that I understood why Kerry shot the kid...that happens in a war.

    I was merely criticizing that he came back, accepted a medal for it, and then embellished the story to some "kill or be killed" macho war story.

  21. #21
    Nbadan
    Guest
    fake but accurate



    Or maybe "real and inaccurate".

  22. #22
    Yonivore
    Guest
    God, that was original.

    So, how 'bout a response to my criticism of Kerry, Nbadanallah.

    Do you believe it was disingenous for him to write in his biographical "Tour of Duty," "of staring down a suspected guerilla who was about to fire upon Kerry's swift boat. It was kill or be killed," when he wrote the following in the After Action Report -- regarding the same incident:
    "PCF 94 beached in center of ambush in front of small path when Viet Cong sprung up from bunker 10 feet from unit. Man ran with weapon towards hootch. Forward M-60 machine gunner wounded man in leg. Officer-in-charge, LTjg Kerry, jumped ashore and gave pursuit while other units saturated area with fire and beached placing assault parties ashore. Kerry chased VC inland behind hootch and shot him while he fled -- capturing one B-40 rocket launcher with round in chamber."
    I'd say the stories are vastly different, how 'bout you?

  23. #23
    Yonivore
    Guest
    In fact, it all of a sudden occurs to me that, , maybe the kid was killed by the saturation fire before Kerry even reached him and that all he had to do was pick up the ordinance without hurting himself or rupturing a disc...hmmmmm...

    That's a nice rumor. Someone call Michael Mooron.

  24. #24
    DeSPURado
    Guest
    Instead of coming face to face with a bazooka weilding VC soldier -- in a "kill or be killed" moment, he chased a frightened, injured, VC teenager behind a hootch and executed him. Wow! What bravery. Oh, and if you read the AAR, he did this while everyone else on the Swiftboat was saturating the area with cover fire.
    You are an idiot to not think that was brave. Doing that lead to many many American soldiers dying when they were ambushed.

  25. #25
    ClintSquint
    Guest

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