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I was more or less wrong about the no re-signing thing with renounced players. And this seems to make Marcus' point about the June 30 date being most important, whether the player was renounced or not:
Horry would have to have been renounced to gain the cap room to sign Manu, so that isn't in question. The only question is whether renouncing Horry last summer precludes us from using EB rights on him this summer. The passage I read from the FAQ says it doesn't, but there are enough conflicting reports to cast doubt on it.Well it precludes the Spurs from using any special rights they may have qualified for. In Horry's case it was only the right to sign him at a contract with a starting salary as much as 120% of that of the previous year. To wit: http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#17I'm still not getting why there would be .. if he's renounced, then "until next June 30" they won't have his EB. They wouldn't have had his EB before that anyway - he hadn't been here two years.
As I said, I would refer to the actual CBA to get to the bottom of this, but the site is down.
Last edited by ChumpDumper; 07-01-2005 at 12:29 PM.
I was more or less wrong about the no re-signing thing with renounced players. And this seems to make Marcus' point about the June 30 date being most important, whether the player was renounced or not:
Here's the deal...these articles saying we have to sign Horry out of the MLE...they don't say the same thing about Devin...
Without doing any indepth research, and having a rudimentary knowledge of the cap, the assumption should be that we have Horry's early bird rights as well...because he's been here two seasons.
I personally don't know if they renounced Horry's rights last summer...all I know that they did for sure was decline an option on his contract...I don't know if that counsts as renunciation or if the Spurs formally renounced them to clear cap space...
To me, declining his option shouldn't count as a renouncement...I mean did Horry renounce his own rights this summer when he opted out of his deal? He can't do that.
And it probably is possible to renounced the first year of rights to a player even though there are no exceptions granted with those rights...that better be possible..or Chump got owned earlier this season.
Like I mentioned earlier...the one thing that does bother me about this whole situation, and the reason I am worried...
I think Ludden was one of the guys that said we had to sign Horry out of the MLE...I've never seen Ludden be wrong about the cap situation or the hows and whys of signing someone...my guess is because he usually gets his info straight from the horses' mouth.
Stein saying it, doesn' bother me...Ludden saying it, does.
Okay, so if everyone is saying he was renounced ...
It is, and you actually do get an exception for a 1 year player.And it probably is possible to renounced the first year of rights to a player even though there are no exceptions granted with those rights.
http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#17
Chump was the one who said the Spurs renounced Horry's rights...it was a typical hair split to get off the ropes in an argument he/she was losing to me...
But I think it might be possible to renounce the first years rights...because basically when you have the rights of a player they have a placeholder in your cap, even if they don't have Bird exceptions...the Spurs were trying to clear every last penny of space last summer...so they might have renounced Horry's placeholder in the cap...
I dunno..since they declined his option I don't know what his place holder figure would be...but that doesn't mean there wasn't one.....he might have still be holding a place equivalent % to the contract that was opted out of....and the Spurs had to renounce that slot as well...and in doing so gave up one year off their ability to claim his Bird exceptions...still, we should have those rights back now...
I dunno...I don't know crap about the cap and unlike some, never claimed to...
But basically it boils down to this, I hope Chump is right...if Horry has been with the team for two seasons? And we don't have his Bird Rights? Someone in the Spurs org screwed up somehow...that would be unusual, and costly.
Kori, I think those FAQ are just covering every situation. So they are assuming that at the time of renouncement they had the EB rights and therefore would get them back one year later.
Everything that I read seems to indicate that the Spurs have his EB rights. There should be no question about renouncing Horry last year because the only way to have cap room for the Manu contract to be possible was to renounce him. So that's a definete.
Horry has completed 2 seasons with the Spurs, and those CBA FAQs all point to Horry having the EB rights unless the Spurs renounce him this year which would be really ing stupid. The only reason you renounce players is to remove them from the cap but it doesn't preclude you from signing them.
Anyhow, one thing to consider is what the NEW CBA says about those EB rights, because the old one is going to mean jack when we start signing players. I hope none of that has changed, and while there is no indication it has there have already been several little suprises with this CBA.
From what I can see, his placeholder amount would have been 120% of his previous year's contract...since they declined his option I don't know what his place holder figure would be...but that doesn't mean there wasn't one.....he might have still be holding a place equivalent % to the contract that was opted out of.
I get that. I'm asking because everyone here keeps bringing up that we have them because we "got them back" after June 30. To me, we would have never had them before June 30.Kori, I think those FAQ are just covering every situation. So they are assuming that at the time of renouncement they had the EB rights and therefore would get them back one year later.
Except that every article in America that lists if teams have a certain player's EB rights, don't list Horry as one of those players.Everything that I read seems to indicate that the Spurs have his EB rights.
But the media just may not know the situation.
My understanding from what I've read is that when you renounce a player you remove the placeholder on the cap. As a result you lose any exceptions for one year. That usually doesn't matter because players that are renounced are more than likely not going to be resigned, but when they are you gain the right to use those exceptions in one year.
From that line of reasoning, under the old CBA and the new one if it's the same the Spurs have his EB rights. I think we're just making this debate harder than it has to be.
The Spurs had an option. I don't think renouncing an option is equivalent to renouncing Bird rights.
Well, for the record I would trust the scrutiny that is placed on the CBA by the posters of this board much farther than I would trust that of any sports writers. I've seen enough mistakes over my years here to recognize how all of them - including Ludden - don't bother to analyze the CBA in the way we do.
Declining an option is not the same as renouncing. When they declined his option Horry still had a 120% placeholder counting against the Spurs cap. So in order to sign Manu last year, they had to not only decline his option but renounce him in order to remove the placeholder and open up the cap space to fit Manu's contract.
If this is correct, the Spurs have Horry's EB rights. From http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm
EARLY BIRD EXCEPTION -- This is a weaker form of the Larry Bird exception. Players who qualify for this exception are called "Early Qualifying Veteran Free Agents" in the CBA. A player qualifies for this exception after just two seasons without being waived or changing teams as a free agent. Using this exception, a team may re-sign its own free agent for 175% of his salary the previous season or the average player salary, whichever is greater (see question number 22 for the definition of "average salary"). Early Bird contracts must be for at least two seasons (which limits this exception's usefulness -- it's often better to take a lower salary for one more season and then have the full Bird exception available the next season) and no longer than six seasons. A player can receive 12.5% raises using this exception.
Ludeen usually gets his info straight from the Spurs...
We've all read that. That's what we are debating if it applies to this situation because of the fact that Horry was renounced.A player qualifies for this exception after just two seasons without being waived or changing teams as a free agent
And hootie, don't be such a about your ignorance of cap issues. I only know these things because of questions that were asked on this board and SR, and got a rep for knowing this stuff because I simply did the research. Feel free to find a post where I say I know everything about the CBA -- you won't find it. There are definitely three or four guys here who clearly know more than I, but they don't post as frequently. The information is there for anyone who wants to know about it, though the FAQ and CBA are almost as long as one of your Coyote posts.
So in conclusion, don't PM me asking about the Kincks cap situation anymore.
Get ed Chump...you know you were being a head about it when you said "learn what renounce means"...so you. I am gonna be on your ass if you were wrong about this...you may as well prepare for it, it's gonna be on the list.
And I never said "you" claimed to be an expert...
Do you know yet? I gave you a link. I wasn't going to give you the fish for a day.you know you were being a head about it when you said "learn what renounce means"I won't be bothered a bit. I've been wrong before. If you'd like, I'll make the "My understanding is" disclaimer more standard.I am gonna be on your ass if you were wrong about this.The implication is quite clear. Don't back down now.And I never said you claimed to be an expert...
Yes, the Spurs have Horry's EB rights.
http://nbpa.org/downloads/CBA.pdf
"Early Qualifying Veteran Free Agent" means a Veteran Free Agent who, prior to becoming a Veteran Free Agent, played under one or more Player Contracts covering some or all of each of the two preceding Seasons, and who: (i) either exclusively played with his Prior Team during such two Seasons, or, if he played for more than one Team during such period, changed Teams only (x) by means of assignment, or (y) by signing with his Prior Team during the first of the two Seasons; or (ii) became a Veteran Free Agent on July 1, 1998 and played with his Prior Team for some or all of each of the preceding two Seasons, and who did not change Teams during such two Seasons by signing with his Prior Team as a Veteran Free Agent.
Bingo. A team can decline to extend a contract using an option and yet retain that player's Early Bird or Bird Rights.
Thanks for the link!
So that seals it, they have his rights.
So is that the new CBA or the old CBA?
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