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  1. #26
    JEBO TE! Clandestino's Avatar
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    I know! I'm so sick of electing my local Best Buy representative only to have them give my Best Buy rights away!

    Oh wait, they are a private organization on private property and entrence to them is volantary, correct?
    Sounds like restaurants/bars, but they are still regulated.

  2. #27
    Free Throw Coach Aggie Hoopsfan's Avatar
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    I know! I'm so sick of electing my local Best Buy representative only to have them give my Best Buy rights away!

    Oh wait, they are a private organization on private property and entrence to them is volantary, correct?
    So are you saying if they "privatized" subway security searches would be okay?

    Hey, it's public taxpayer money that is paying the cops to search, perhaps they should take a vote of taxpayers on it?

    Chance of catching one of the London Terrorists bombs WITHOUT random searches: ZERO

    Chance of catching one of them with random searches: Better than Zero.
    Bingo.

  3. #28
    Pimp Marcus Bryant's Avatar
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    If you empower cops to shoot anyone who looks funny that increases the odds of stopping the 'terrerists' too.

  4. #29
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    Chance of catching one of the London Terrorists bombs WITHOUT random searches: ZERO

    Chance of catching one of them with random searches: Better than Zero.

    I think anytime you have a chance to save lives, you go with the higher percentage option. Guess not with you. You Liberals love it when innocents die. It gives you more fodder against Bush.
    Hey, I'll give it to you Clandestino. I will concede that random searches increase the odds of catching a terrorist. By such an insignificant amount that there are far better options. Especially when people are allowed to walk away form the random searches, walk to the next subway station where they are not being carried out and do whatever they intended at that point.

    So yes, the chances of catching a terrorist without random searches are not very high. But the chances of a catching a terrorist with random searches are higher by such a small margin it is virtually non-existant.

    And while I know it is hard for your brain to bring in the concept of other options, the fact remains that the 2 options you compared are not the only 2 available. It is not a random searches or status quo situation, so your comparision becomes that much more useless. Much like the searches.

    But I have a question for all the proponents of the random search:

    If it is such an effective policy, why are they no longer using them in airports?

  5. #30
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    Sounds like restaurants/bars, but they are still regulated.
    Regulated, yes. Forced to enforce the bill of rights, No.

  6. #31
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    So are you saying if they "privatized" subway security searches would be okay?
    Sure. If Disney wants to search everyone who gets on their monorail at their theme park, they have the right too. Private property, private business.

    However, when dealing with a public right of way and a publicly funded mass transist system, the fourth amendment definetly applies.

    And this is all ignoring the fact that it is a useless policy.

    Hey, it's public taxpayer money that is paying the cops to search, perhaps they should take a vote of taxpayers on it?



    Bingo.
    Voting can't override the bill of rights either. So, you may want to check your "bingo" card again.

  7. #32
    Still Hates Small Ball Spurminator's Avatar
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    Maybe we should discuss the other options. Particularly those that wouldn't cause Civil Liberties groups to throw a fit.

  8. #33
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    Maybe we should discuss the other options. Particularly those that wouldn't cause Civil Liberties groups to throw a fit.
    Actually, I believe the first test of an option and whether it should or shouldn't be discussed is it's EFFECTIVENESS.

  9. #34
    Still Hates Small Ball Spurminator's Avatar
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    Well, we've established that its effectiveness is "more effective than the status quo." Now the job is to find an option that's more effective than that.

    I don't like it either, so I'd be interested in exploring alternatives. I just haven't heard any.

  10. #35
    JEBO TE! Clandestino's Avatar
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    manny, just has to argue in favor of civil liberties no matter what because jekka makes him. even if it means less safe public transportation. manny, go to jekka's purse and pull your nuts out.

  11. #36
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    manny, just has to argue in favor of civil liberties no matter what because jekka makes him. even if it means less safe public transportation. manny, go to jekka's purse and pull your nuts out.


    Right.

    Why did they end airline searches again?

  12. #37
    Still Hates Small Ball Spurminator's Avatar
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    Anyway, back to my question...

  13. #38
    JEBO TE! Clandestino's Avatar
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    Right.

    Why did they end airline searches again?
    probably too many lawsuits...

  14. #39
    JEBO TE! Clandestino's Avatar
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    what is question spurm?

  15. #40
    Still Hates Small Ball Spurminator's Avatar
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    Maybe we should discuss the other options.
    I suppose it's not really a question...

  16. #41
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    Well, we've established that its effectiveness is "more effective than the status quo." Now the job is to find an option that's more effective than that.

    I don't like it either, so I'd be interested in exploring alternatives. I just haven't heard any.

    The odds of catching a would-be subway bomber are not very good. New York's subways carry about 4.5 million passengers on the average weekday, according to the Metropolitan Transportation Authority. If on any given day there were a single terrorist riding the subway, and half the passengers were carrying some sort of bag, the probability of finding him or her during any particular search using a truly random search pattern would be about one in 2.25 million or about four ten-millionths of one percent. Such odds are only slightly better than winning New York's Mega Millions lottery (about one in 175 million). Even multiplied by thousands of intrusive searches that's a poor bet—and that assumes terrorists are too dim to adapt by, say, strapping bombs to their bodies.
    I just want everyone to know where the bar is set.

  17. #42
    JEBO TE! Clandestino's Avatar
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    Option 1: Don't allow any Muslims on Public Transportation...
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    joke... I have a bro-in-law that is a Muslim.

  18. #43
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    probably too many lawsuits...
    Or becasue they were ineffective? And even if it was due to lawsuits, then they were illegal.

    You're such an idiot.

  19. #44
    JEBO TE! Clandestino's Avatar
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    Or becasue they were ineffective? And even if it was due to lawsuits, then they were illegal.

    You're such an idiot.
    Illegal to put measures in place that would deter terrorists.

  20. #45
    Still Hates Small Ball Spurminator's Avatar
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    First, I question how they came up with those odds.

    Second, the purpose of random searches is not simply to catch terrorists. It's to give them some cause for concern before deciding to attack.

    If we dump searches completely while we try to come up with a more PC alternative, how do we deter potential terrorists?



    Third, what are the alternatives?

  21. #46
    JEBO TE! Clandestino's Avatar
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    manny is just anti government... if jekka doesn't believe in it, he can't either...

  22. #47
    Still Hates Small Ball Spurminator's Avatar
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    Back on topic.

  23. #48
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    Bruce Schneier is an internationally renowned security technologist and author. Described by The Economist as a "security guru," Schneier is best known as a refreshingly candid and lucid security critic and commentator. When people want to know how security really works, they turn to Schneier.
    Searching Bags in Subways

    The New York City police will begin randomly searching people's bags on subways, buses, commuter trains, and ferries.

    "The police can and should be aggressively investigating anyone they suspect is trying to bring explosives into the subway," said Christopher Dunn, associate legal director at the New York Civil Liberties Union. "However, random police searches of people without any su ion of wrongdoing are contrary to our most basic cons utional values. This is a very troubling announcement."

    If the choice is between random searching and profiling, then random searching is a more effective security countermeasure. But Dunn is correct above when he says that there are some enormous trade-offs in liberty. And I don't think we're getting very much security in return.

    Especially considering this:

    [Police Commissioner Raymond] Kelly stressed that officers posted at subway entrances would not engage in racial profiling, and that passengers are free to "turn around and leave."

    "Okay guys; here are your explosives. If one of you gets singled out for a search, just turn around and leave. And then go back in via another entrance, or take a taxi to the next subway stop."

    And I don't think they'll be truly random, either. I think the police doing the searching will profile, because that's what happens.

    It's another "movie plot threat." It's another "public relations security system." It's a waste of money, it substantially reduces our liberties, and it won't make us any safer.

    Final note: I often get comments along the lines of "Stop criticizing stuff; tell us what we should do." My answer is always the same. Counterterrorism is most effective when it doesn't make arbitrary assumptions about the terrorists' plans. Stop searching bags on the subways, and spend the money on 1) intelligence and investigation -- stopping the terrorists regardless of what their plans are, and 2) emergency response -- lessening the impact of a terrorist attack, regardless of what the plans are. Countermeasures that defend against particular targets, or assume particular tactics, or cause the terrorists to make insignificant modifications in their plans, or that surveil the entire population looking for the few terrorists, are largely not worth it.
    http://www.schneier.com/blog/archive...hing_bags.html

  24. #49
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    manny is just anti government... if jekka doesn't believe in it, he can't either...
    And I have big ears.

  25. #50
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    Actually, you got one thing right. I am antgovernment. But you're too stupid to realize that most libertarians in here are.

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