Battle Blog: David vs Hakeem

[Nikos]

Out of curiosity, does anyone have the box scores of the 1995 WCF?

It's funny, on Rocket sites it is said that Hakeem was doubled moreso than Drob, here it is said that Drob was doubled and Hakeem was purely covered by one man. Which is it? Is the truth, that BOTH players got doubled, just Hakeem's role players hit the open shots at a higher rate?

[whottt]

FWDT posted the stats a long time ago....

Drob averaged IIRC about 16 FT's per game...

Hakeem averaged about 6....


Now that's 8 fouls on Drob per game...just of the shooting kind....

Unless they were giving Hakeem 8 fouls per game there is no way for him to have been the primary defender on Drob....

In fact I think I remember Hakeem averaged about 3 PF per game in that series.


On top of that...the Rockets had the most prolific 3 point shooting team in NBA history...if Hakeem was being doubled then the Rockets were stupid. Those Rockets weren't stupid.

It was more like a synthises of the 2....

The Rockets doubled Drob for the majority of the game and then would flip Hakeem on to DRob at the end...the Spurs did it the opposite..Drob had some huge 4th quarters in that series....and Hakeem had some no shows. And the two games in Houston were Drob VS Hakeem one on one more than any other games of the series...

But no...Rodman was a non factor defensively in that series...


David was doubled a lot more than any of these guys were....it was the best way to stop him...if you had a mass of flesh on him there was less likely to be a foul call....and what was he going to do about it?

Kick it out to AJ for 3?

Even Vinny wasn't a prolific 3 shooter and Vinny had that same problem of hitting open threes that a lot Duncan's teamates have had...Vinny would usually do a good job of hitting the ones with a guy in his face.

[whottt]

By the way...

In David's first 2 years in the NBA, with Rod Strickland and Willie Anderson as his guards...he did this in the playoffs:

PPG: 24.4
FG%: 56.8%

That is among the best ever for a player in his first 2 years in the playoffs...compare it to Duncan.

In the early Vinny and AJ era of 92-93 and 93-94 he did this:
PPG: 22.21
FG%: 44.8%

One of those years he had AJ and no Vinny...the other year he had Vinny and no AJ(this year was awful in the post season)...But she Spurs still kept winning @ 50+ games per year in the regular season.

In the AJ Vinny era of 94-95 and 95-96 he did this:
PPG: 24.64
FG%: 47.1%

The guards matter....

David didn't all of sudden become a soft player, a guy who didn't care about winning, a choker...after ripping ass his first 2 years in the NBA...His teamates changed...his coaches changes. And his college career proves this as well.

Everyone thinks the Spurs teams didn't win because of David Robinson...

Just take a look at what happened when Robinson wasn't healthy...the Spurs lost like a mothr er...none of this 18 game winning streak stuff like the Rockets pulled off without Hakeem...none of this 15-8 stuff like the Spurs have pulled off without Duncan...We are talking big time losing records.

David masked the weaknesses for his team and altered his game to fill them...like no other player in NBA history...

This is why a C who "can't score"...all of sudden becomes the first C in 20 years to win a scoring le. Something Hakeem never did.

This is why a soft player...leads the league in blocks and rebounds...something Shaq has never done.

This is why without a point guard...a C who "can't pass" like David Robinson..drop 4.8 assists per game...becoming only the 6th or 7th C in history to pull that off...and one of the few to ever lead his team in assists.

No...David Robinson was not the reason his teams did not win...he was the only thing that made them a good team...


He was John Elway...he carried teams much further than they had any business going...and giving their fans much more expectation than they should have had...

David was good enough to get his teams in over their heads...

That's why you look at Hakeem...Kareem....Shaq....Wilt...they all had years they failed to get their teams to the playoffs...Kareem and Hakeem had last place teams...

A Drob never finished lower than second in the division...no matter who the teamates were.

David Robinson never did. And he didn't have Magic Johnson, Kobe Bryant, Clyde Drexler, Scottie Pippen, Oscrar Robertson...like those guys did either.

Learn the game and stop the hate....

Mr.Robinson is the MOST Under-rated player in NBA history...all because of 1 playoff series he lost 2-4 against the defending champions...

[whottt]

And one other thing....

This year against the Suns...

Amare Stoudamire averaged 37 PPG...

Use the same logic people use against David.

[z0sa]

David was taller, longer, and much much more athletic than Hakeem. He just didn't have the moves.

[whottt]

He also didn't have the team...

[SLOVENIAN 8]

Hakeem was better for me sory........ But not so much better than David

[Spurologist]

while dream won with a ty cast...even though they had clyde horry cassell ellie

What?

The arguement of a player having a bad supporting cast is weak IMO. You don't get to win a ring not having a great supporting cast. MJ tried doing it on his own in his early days in the nba, but was then dubbed as one who couldn't carry his team to a championship. In comes pipen and co.

As much as I love Drob, the answer to this question is the Dream

[Willinsa]

I remember after the 95 wcf I came to the conclusion that David would never win anything alone, all those years from 91-94 carrying the crappy teams on his back took its toll.

But overall I would take Hakeem over David, and I like David a lot. I am just being realistic.

[bobbyjoe]

Out of the 48 times Hakeem and David met during their careers, David won his matchup 36 times or a 3:1 margin. I don't still have the link but it was in an ESPN article about comparing great centers head-to-head sometime last year. To me, that is far more statistically significant that a 6 game playoff series where David was double-teamed and Hakeem was not.

Those of you who feel Hakeem was the better player should explain how Dave bested Hakeem those 36 other times.

I'm listening.

After getting Duncan, the Spurs beat Houston something like 14 out of 16. Both Hakeem and DRob were way past their prime post 98, but the Spurs had Duncan and Houston didnt. These games are included in the regular season games you reference, so its completely misleading and highly irrelevant. Also, the ESPN article showed that Hakeem won the individual matchups with Robinson because of better stats, but the Spurs team beat the Rockets teams more often.

But in 95, both players were in their primes playing for an NBA Championship, so that series absolutely deserves significant consideration in evaluating the players. Playoffs are infiniitely more important than the regular season and Hakeem abused Robinson at Robinson's absolute peak, his MVP season. 95 is a uva lot more relevant than games in 98, 99, 00, and 01 when Hakeem was a shade of his former self and Duncan was tearing up the NBA and DRob was coattail riding.

The Jazz were 3-1 against the Bulls in the 97-98 Regular seasons but lost in the Finals to them both seasons. You tell me which games were more statistically significant. The Rockets were 1-7 in the 95 regular season against Orlando and San Antonio. Does that mean Hakeem was the third best Center out of Hakeem, Shaq, and DRob despite the fact that he torched both Rob and Shaq in the playoffs en route to back to back les, when the games actually mattered? Is Peyton Manning a better QB than Tom Brady because he has better regular season #'s? His playoff failures mean nothing, relative to that all important regular season, where les are not won?

The double team argument is just trash because Hakeem averaged 5.5 assists in that series WCF, double his career average. The reasons Cassell and Elie and Horry were wide open for back breaking shots was that Hakeem was spinnning Rob out of his jock strap every play, shooting 56%, and dropping nearly 40 a night. Had Dave even controlled Hakeem to a degree, Spurs sweep that series. You don't average that many assists if you aren't double teamed.

Anyway, I do agree that you can't base everything of one playoff series, even if it is the WCF with 2 players who are both at their primes at the same time.

The reasons that Hakeem is universally (outside of course of SA) regarded as a superior player than David Robinson are several:

1) Hakeem led his teams to 2 les as the #1 option on a team. His 94 team and Duncan's 03 teams are probably the 2 weakest supporting casts in league history among le teams, which tells you how great hakeem and duncan were in those years. DRob would never have even BEEN to the nba finals if not for duncan. He won 2 les, but in the Scottie Pippen role. He was a minimal part of the 03 team's success. Duncan won without DRob but not vice versa.

2) Both players were in the same tier defensively, but Hakeem had a much more diverse offensive repertoire and was much more clutch: Hakeem had as many post moves as any big man, David did not and this really hurt him and SA in the playoffs.

3) Hakeem was an elite playoff performer. David was not. While both are very close in regular season stats, the playoff disparity is overwhelming:

PPG FG% REB ASSISTS BLK STL
Hakeem 25.9 53 11.2 3.2 3.3 1.7
DRob 18.1 48 10.6 2.3 2.5 1.2

Hakeem beats DRob in literally every statistic. The lack of go-to move vs. hakeem's unstoppable pet moves is the difference for the huge disparity in FG%. These stats show players who are in 2 different tiers. Hakeem is in the tier with Shaq, Wilt, Kareem, Russell while DRob belongs in the tier with Ewing, Mikan, Reed, etc.

4) 95 demolition with DRob at his peak and hakeem at his peak. Not even the staunchest Spurs homer will argue that dave ever reached a level hakeem did in the 94-95 playoffs. Hakeem in those yrs played at a level that was up there with MJ at his peak and Shaq at his peak from 00-02. Rob never sniffed that level of play.

Saying Rob>Hakeem would be like a homer Wolves fan saying KG>TD

[bobbyjoe]

I, up to the last few months have always thought that hakeem was a better player then drob. But then I realized that the series that both players are compared are the 95 playoff series.

I felt that hakeem "schooled" drob during that series. Now I've come to realize that drob didn't have much of a supporting cast while hakeem had a good supporting cast. And that hakeem had the help of thorpe. David never really had that other post guy besides mings in his first 2 years and of course td.

I still think hakeem is 1mm of a notch better then drob. Because:

1. Hakeem has the best back to the basket game only rivaled by td as far as footwork and playing by the rules (you hear that shaq).

2. Hakeem knew how to play basketball. In other words he knew how to use his body when he was scoring or maybe he just had more coordination then drob. Drob was all speed on offense, he just almost recklessly went to the hoop and always seemed uncoordinated to me.

On a side note, I wonder how the media would view drob if he had clyde on his team during drob's prime in a major market team ala LA.

Couple of things:

-Clyde was a few years removed from his prime by the time he got to Houston. Hakeem and him never played in their primes together, although they would have had Houston taken MJ instead of hakeem.

-Otis Thorpe wasn't on the 95 team for Houston. This is why hakeem assumed legendary status that year. On a team which started CHucky Brown, a CBA talent, at PF facing Barkley, Malone, Rodman, and then Horace Grant in the playoffs, Hakeem's dominance allowed Houston to overcome huge talent disadvantages at the PF position. hakeem's front court mates in 95 were chucky brown and charles jones, a 38 year old. Rob's was a HOF PF Dennis Rodman.

Rob had Sean Elliott and Dennis Rodman, 2 all stars, one HOFer. if the spurs cast was that bad, no way do they win 62 games in the reg season. Rob fell short in the playoffs, got torched by hakeem, and shot poorly vs. houston from field. The domination at that position was easily the #1 reason for the series loss.

[ceds]

The spurs have celebrated 3 les since the Dream put this to rest. Whott its time to accept and move on...

Many of the arguements you use for Drob are similiar excuses Twolves fans use

Do you think KG is better then TD also?

[whottt]

The spurs have celebrated 3 les since the Dream put this to rest. Whott its time to accept and move on...

Many of the arguements you use for Drob are similiar excuses Twolves fans use

Do you think KG is better then TD also?

Well since KG pulled a Hakeem this season, and laid a big stinky turd in the regular season FAILING...that's right FAILING, to make the playoffs...

Just like the guy ya'll are giving credit for single handedly winning a le....

No I don't.


Get smarter....And stop hitting women on the on the head with clubs...



Hakeem was doing good to get the Rockets over 500%...most years of his career...and now ya'll want to act like he was a one man championship team....he wasn't.

[ceds]

No excuses..you had the best team in 94. Dream had to depend heavily on two rookies and no 2nd all star. Spurs had an all star, best record , home court, legendary role player (Rodman) and the mighty MVP.

MJ had retired and it was time for one of robinson, malone, dream , ewing and barkley to stake claim as the leagues best player. Hakeems dominance in 94 / 95 puts him above anything robinson has done

[samikeyp]

Hakeems dominance in 94 / 95 puts him above anything robinson has done

I disagree with that. Hakeem has better career numbers and they both have two les. Hakeem was awesome in that post-season but one post-season does not a career make. Hakeem may have had a better career but in no way does one season outweigh an entire career. I do agree though that the Spurs were better and should have taken that series and the le that year...they pissed that away. Besides...its all irrelevant. They were both outstanding players on the court and more importantly outstanding men on the court. They are both Hall of Famers. In the end, history looks at les and the HOF....in those categories, the two are equal.

[ceds]

Tell me a better way to judge two superstars then to have them match up for a 7 game series in the primes of their careers?.

Once again, David was the MVP and had the more talented team. Hakeem put on one of the greatest playoff performances in history and showed the world he was the better player. Almost every basketball expert in the country ranks dream over robinson and that series has alot to do with it.

[whottt]

No excuses..you had the best team in 94.

Um...The Rockets were the defending champions.

Dream had to depend heavily on two rookies and no 2nd all star. Spurs had two all stars, best record , home court, legendary role player (Rodman) and the mighty MVP.

Oh please...you guys had ing Drexler...stop acting he was Matheusela....he was ing 32 years old, the same age as Rodman...and if you don't think he in the class of a second All Star you don't know what you are talking...he was most definitely a dominant second scorer..something Drob didn't have.


And ing Casell came off the bench and dropped 30 on us...

When did David's starting PG ever drop 30 someone....let alone his backup PG.

MJ had retired and it was time for one of robinson, malone, dream , ewing and barkley to stake claim as the leagues best player. Hakeems dominance in 94 / 95 puts him above anything robinson has done

Try as I might, I can't find Hakeem Olajuwon ever listed as the NBA champion...there's a reason for that...


Until you figure it out...I suggest you try tennis...I think it's more your kind of sport.

[samikeyp]

Once again, David was the MVP and had the more talented team. Hakeem put on one of the greatest playoff performances in history and showed the world he was the better player

Once again...I agreed with all that.

I still say Hakeem was a better player, but I also still say that he was not as dominant throughout his career over David as a lot of people say. People tend to use just that series as a bench mark for the two players entire careers and I don't agree with that.

[2pac]

If Hakeem was so great, why did the Rockets fail to reach the playoffs in his prime (92?)

If Hakeem was so great, why did his Rockets fail to win 50 games 11 times in Hakeems Houston Career?

If Hakeem was so great, why did his Rockets only win the Midwest Division twice?

Robinson guarded Hakeem straight up in the WCF, but Hakeem didnt guard Robinson, he guarded Rodman until Rodman got suspended. Hakeem got to rest on defense while Robinson worked hard both ends, because he had a heavier load to carry than Hakeem.

Clyde > Elliott (Clyde was still getting 22/7/5)
Elie > Vinny Del Negro
Sam I Am/Kenny Smith > Avery (Avery was a better leader, but Houston ran inside-out and they just needed PGs to hit open shots.)
Robert Horry > Chuck Person
Rodman < Chilcutt/Brown (but Rodman was suspended for the last two games and Houston won both)

[samikeyp]

entire career stats for both:

Hakeem: 21.8ppg 11.1rpg, 2.5apg, 1.75spg, 3.09bpg

David: 21.1, 10.6, 2.5, 1.4, 3.0

I don't see the dominance over the length of the two careers. Hakeem was better, not dominantly but better.

Now would that have changed if Dave had not agreed to reduce his offensive role when TD came along? Who knows...but then again...the Spurs may not have had two les when Dave retired.

[ceds]

Um...The Rockets were the defending champions.

We were written off by everyone going into the playoffs and were a low seed. Spurs were favoured by many going in the series

When did David's starting PG ever drop 30 someone....let alone his backup PG.

BS excuses.. how about david increasing his output in playoff games for a change

Oh please...you guys had ing Drexler...stop acting he was Matheusela....he was ing 32 years old, the same age as Rodman

At best a 32yr old clyde cancels out Elliot..either way the team were matched evenly enough to the point where one of the superstars had to raise the bar.

Robinson guarded Hakeem straight up in the WCF, but Hakeem didnt guard Robinson

Dreams presense led to many open 3 point shots..yeah he was played straight up but not as much as people on this board make out

[ceds]

Ill apply the homer logic you use for Robinson against TD

KG has had better stats then TD for about 3 seasons now. He has made it as far in the playoffs as Robinson ever did as team superstar and regularly leads his team to 50 wins seasons. Injury, poor management and no draft are to blame for this man not to have won a ring yet or have a better playoff record.

So he's the better player then TD right??

KG is just like Robinson..great players but a notch below their rival.
Playoffs are where the legends are made

[samikeyp]

Ill apply the homer logic you use for Robinson against TD

Homer logic? I was agreeing with you.

Nice.

[whottt]

Ill apply the homer logic you use for Robinson against TD

KG has had better stats then TD for about 3 seasons now. He has made it as far in the playoffs as Robinson ever did as team superstar and regularly leads his team to 50 wins seasons. Injury, poor management and no draft are to blame for this man not to have won a ring yet or have a better playoff record.

So he's the better player then TD right??

KG is just like Robinson..great players but a notch below their rival.
Playoffs are where the legends are made

Bad comparison...#1. TD has had a better supporting cast than KG...a better organization backing him...and a better coach.

I mean did Duncan's organization up thier draft for a decade?


But Robinson's ability to carry a team was far superior to KG's and Hakeem's...

Hakeem failed to make it out of the first round more times than Robinson...he failef to make the playoffs more times than Robinson. Robinson has a winning record against him.

For all but 3 years of the 13 years they played together Robinson's teams outperformed Hakeem's.

For 5 of the 7 years they were in their primes together Robinsons teams out performed Hakeem's....


and Hakeem's list of teamates is far more illustrious than Robinsons.......And Robinson has a winning record against Hakeem.

You choose to judge them by one playoff series...one playoff series does not a career make.

Judge Hakeem by one playoff series...Parish>Hakeem?

[bobbyjoe]

entire career stats for both:

Hakeem: 21.8ppg 11.1rpg, 2.5apg, 1.75spg, 3.09bpg

David: 21.1, 10.6, 2.5, 1.4, 3.0

I don't see the dominance over the length of the two careers. Hakeem was better, not dominantly but better.

Now would that have changed if Dave had not agreed to reduce his offensive role when TD came along? Who knows...but then again...the Spurs may not have had two les when Dave retired.

Look at the playoff stats and they are not even close. DRob is a distant 2nd in playoff stats. You can see thim in this very thread and that's really what separates the 2 guys.

Also, it's been shown that Clyde may have been "only" 32 when he was in Houston, but as the #'s show he was not even close to the player he was in his prime. His FG% and PPG had plummeted by the time he came to Houston. He rode hakeem's coattails the same way pippen did with mj.