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yes, cuz as well all know, Jordan NEVER PUSHED OFF...did you catch the last shot vs the Jazz? IF THE REFS GIVE YOU THE CALL, that is all that matters man...wow, your a great spurs fan...
If Dwayne Wade is being mentioned in this discussion after only two years in the league then Shaq should get the nod hands down as having the greatest impact in the league.
yes, cuz as well all know, Jordan NEVER PUSHED OFF...did you catch the last shot vs the Jazz? IF THE REFS GIVE YOU THE CALL, that is all that matters man...wow, your a great spurs fan...
Or maybe he did face that level of compe ion back then but it didn't look like he did because he was head and shoulders above the rest. The great ones make it look easy.
Remember, he played against Grant Hill and the next Jordan Penny Hardaway
What the ? All these peeps telling it like today's athlete is so much better than athlete's from other eras. That is BS. The game is better and there are more athletes for every position on the court but those special players are players who could dominate in ANY ERA. That is what Tim Duncan is. That is what Jordan is. Jordan had people that could limit him. Joe Dumars at 1 time was his constant nemesis holding Mike from his ring for a very long time until Mike finally broket through.
I can anem 1 athlete from the 60's whose skills would crush guys like TMac and Kobe and LeBron. The man's name was Maurice Stokes. and literally...he was a frickin' badass.
In the 1950s, his ability to beat opponents to rebounds with his muscular body, quickness and positioning was nearly unparalleled. He averaged more than 20 rebounds per game in college, more than 17 in the NBA. He passed well, too, good enough to be among the NBA's assist leaders, and averaged double figures in scoring.
Maurice Stokes was one of basketball's best forwards then, one of its least-known stars now. Stokes, 6-foot-7 and 240 pounds, wasn't around long enough to be remembered like many of his peers. In the final regular-season game of the 1957-58 season, his third year as a pro, the Cincinnati Royals all-star fell to the floor, hit his head and was knocked unconscious.In only his second season, he led the league in rebounds and was third in assists. Red Auerbach says Stokes was Magic Johnson before there was a Magic Johnson.When you're called Magic before Magic AND Karl Malone before Karl Malone...You peeps should RECOGNIZE.Stokes made an immediate impact, getting 32 points, 20 rebounds and eight assists in his NBA debut. He went on to average 16.8 points in 1955-56 and a league-best 16.3 rebounds, snatching a franchise-record 38 in one game, and was voted the NBA's Rookie of the Year.
"The first great, athletic power forward," Bob Cousy said years later. "He was Karl Malone with more finesse."
Twyman also became a rookie starter for the Royals and averaged 14.4 points and 6.5 rebounds.
In Stokes' second season, he set an NBA record by grabbing 1,256 rebounds (17.4 per game), ranked third in the league in assists with 331 (4.6 average) and scored 15.6 points a game.
Gotta agree with MIB.
These days athletes get all help from the advances in medical science and sports science. A great talent in 50s, 60s could still have been a star in this era.
Td>god>jordan
^
Wahaha, I definitely agree. I was a Jordan fan before though, before he came back the 3rd time... Had he not shown his "mortal-ness", I would have said: TD>GOD=JORDAN
well, thanks for the 411 MIB, i was igorant about what sounds like a great player...
so other than him and Russell and maybe a couple more guys, i think it could be said that the compe ion level was low in the league back then.
TD, Jordan, Magic, Bird ALL could have had a run like Russells back then imo.
Still, the Man deserves credit for winning 8 in a row with the celts...
screw shaq...he couldn't even win ONE game vs the rockets, and it took Kobe AND Phil AND others before he could get the job done in LA. Most dominant inside of 3 feet from the rim, YES...Most dominant in the league..NO...most dominant ever...not even close. that said, i'm still support him as a former San Antonio resident, but just a little...and he couldn't get the job done last year with Wade AND Mourning and a plethora of other role players...granted he came close...BUT TD&Company GOT THE JOB DONE!
Jordan was great! Period. No one since he retired has managed to score 30 points a night on a consistent basis. I mean its not as if the Bulls were scoring points like the Suns last year. They were known to be a solid defensive team as well. No way TMac, or Kobe comes close to what he can do and what he has done. Pippen couldve been a franchise player anyway else but he stayed to play with Jordan. Jordan made everyone better. whoever heard of Jason Caffey or Scott Williams? You think any other team could put Dennis Rodman and Luc Longley as their starting frontline and win? Today's game requires a dominant big man with a combo guard supporting. Timmy has 2 combo guards in Manu and Parker (yes I dont consider Parker a true point guard). Timmy also has a much better cast than Jordan ever had. Dont believe me? Go compare the damn rosters. Thats why I believe that Jordan made good players great, he also made has beens useful and average players good. Thats MJ.
Timmy is close in terms of making everyone better around him and having the same winning at ude that MJ had and not being a prima dona. But maybe Timmy's problem is that he differs too much too often. That could be the reason why he will never attain MJ's greatness. You think kids growing up 20 years from now would remember Timmy like that would know Jordan? I think not. Blame the marketing. Blame the media. But Jordan is Jordan.
I don't give a rat's ass about what marketers or media tell me. If I listened to them, I shouldn't be a Spurs fan. If I listened to them, I'd beleive that the Spurs are boring. If I listened to them, I'd be like everyother non-Spur fan...LOOKING UP AT THE CHAMPS AND ASKING HOW DO THEY DO IT?You think kids growing up 20 years from now would remember Timmy like that would know Jordan? I think not. Blame the marketing. Blame the media. But Jordan is Jordan.
A real hoop fan will take the time to study the game, look at all the participants, observe, study quan ative statistics to derive true greatness. While Jordan is without a doubt, one of the all-time greats, and probably the most competetive player ever...there are some things that other players at other positions have done that Jordan could never do. I mean Jordan ever average 50 points a game for an entire season? How about average a triple-double an entire season?
Come on...today's players are amazingly talented, but let's not act as if the L DIDN'T HAVE GREATNESS in times past. They did and there are some real standout players that could kick ass today if they played like they did then...today.
As for no one hasn't scored 30 points consistently since MJ. AI this past year averaged 30.7 points per. Sounds pretty consistent to me.
If you're refering to Wilt, you also have to take into account the level of compe ion they had back then my friend. You really think Wilt could drop 50 every night against players of today?? You're delusional!
if you ask me, this is the bottomline,
TD is HALFWAY to Jordan status, as he has been the MAIN OFFENSIVE AND DEFENSIVE player for 3 les. okay, maybe DROB was the main Defensive for 2, but still, the point is valid.
The day may come when TD has 6...and since he is still in his 20's? The sky is the limit.
You guys are acting like Jordan sucked major ass when he came back for the 3rd time. The guy was 39/40 and still put up some big numbers... who else can say that, for that age? Kareem? Maybe, but i cant think of anyone else playing well at that age.
Im sorry, even as big a Tim Duncan fan as I am, TD isnt there yet. Hes up there in the top players this league has ever seen, but while Jordan is easily Top 5, Duncan is around Top 20.
i can agree with this...although I see MJ as top 3 all time, debateable order, and forsee TD finishing in the top 10 at least...barring injury or early retirement...(knock on wood on both counts)
Amen. Even with the 2 years with the Wiz, Jordan was no slouch. in 01-02 his numbers were 22.9 PPG, 5.7 RPG, 5.2 APG, and in 02-03 he had 20, 6.1, 4, playing 35 MPG as the first option.
Anyway, for kids who figure T-Mac could last with MJ in his prime....
MJ version 1 (pre-1995-96) had the quickest first step ever seen. He could attack the rim hard with his athleticism, quickness and hops. Not just that, MJ had the ability to shoot the ball while falling laterally left or right, rising or falling vertically, or falling forward or backward. This combination of supreme physical gifts along with the mental desire made him unguardable one-on-one. Which was the reason why he could score 40 pts easily. A 37 PPG season average is unthinkable today, and a career average of 30 with 50% FGP is rare.
Let's go to MJ version 2 (1996-98). He's older, can't drive or dunk as much and with defenses getting younger and collapsing more and more, he needed to rely on a perfected go-to shot. Jordan's fadeaway was that shot. He became a post player in the Bulls' triangle, the role that Shaq played in the Lakers' triangle. He could do this because he was much stronger than Kobe or T-Mac is. Remember the 2002 All-star game that went to double overtime? Game tied in OT, MJ (a few months shy of 40) had the ball in his hand with 6'9" Shawn Marion on him. Iso play. Iverson, Carter, Marbury, T-Mac just standing and watching. What did Jordan do? Posted up Marion, turned round and hit a high-arcing fadeaway jumper. Jordan v2 was the only guard with a lethal go-to shot that he used time and again on iso plays.
McGrady and Kobe make far too many poor decisions, settle for far too many jumpers, have far too many bad shooting nights to keep up with MJ, either in a team game or in 1-on-1.
Some people say that Jordan didn't have to face zone defenses and that was an advantage. Both McGrady and Kobe have played when zone was outlawed. Zone was brought into the NBA from the 2001-02 season onwards, and even then in a flawed form due to the defensive three-second rule. The defensive bigs can't camp in the key forever to prevent people from driving the lane. Yes, the perimeter players can gamble a bit more on their man, but not too much. But then Jordan played when hand-checking was allowed. McGrady and Kobe didn't, and won't, have to face a Pistons beatdown. There'll be no McGrady Rules or Kobe Rules to try and stop one player as the Pistons did with Jordan.
yes yes, but c'mon man...you have to grade TMac on a curve...the poor bas is doing it with only one and a half eyes...
I agree
Td 4 President
TMAC would have crushed Jordan in his time sorry he would have scored on him like mad. I'm sorry to say but those talents you mentioned still wouldnt have matched up with the likes of Kobe, TMAC, and players of that superstar statue...and simply put, the Spurs of today would have beaten the bulls of yesteryear
The same T-mac who has yet to go past the first round of hte playoffs? I'm sorry, but MJ in his prime could have taken the 2004-05 Rockets to the finals.........easily.
Bulls le runs are overrated, spurs are the real deal
Take off the homer glasses and come talk to me when the Spurs have won 6 rings.
Thought u were takin the year off this forums?? why you still here?
Here's a quick comment on the original question for this thread.
I have to agree (somewhat) with Rummpd and JamStone. Duncan is one of the greatest of all time---and my personal favorite---but he has more to accomplish before he reaches Jordan-type status. This is not a criticism of Duncan, for as I see it, he's in the pantheon: he's one of the ten greatest players of all time, ranked (in my opinion) ahead of O'Neal, Pet , and Moses Malone. But he has yet to supercede either Bird or Magic, even though he's close. And he has yet to approach the near-untouchable four: Jordan, Russell, Chamberlain, and Kareem (in no particular order).
Duncan's offensive and defensive accomplishments, All-NBA and All-Defense selections, winning percentage, MVP's and les put him at his current rank. He needs another MVP or two and/or another le or two to eclipse Bird and Magic, given their resumes. And he has yet to catch the top four, since those players each amassed a ridiculous compilation (in some fashion) of MVP's, les, league awards, and/or statistical records.
Again, this is no challenge to Duncan's worth: it is a tremendous feat to be ranked @ 7th all-time, just under Bird and Magic, with plenty of years left in his career. I just believe he has to achieve a bit more to be placed directly alongside Jordan and company.
God damn it people read my post i never said team against team i said in a pick up game at the ing park 1 on 1 TMAC would take Jordan hands down 10-8
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