Suns: So how overrated is Nash?

[DMC]

Nash was deserving of the offensive accolades he received. He couldn't play a lick of defense which shows you just how good he was on offense.

[DMC]

I give the OP credit; seed of doubt in my mind now.

Bend over, I'll put one in the other end.

[DAF86]

I always thought of Nash as a great shooter more than a great assister (which he also is), tbh. Probably a top 3 shooter of all-time.

[Mori Chu]

Nash was an all-time great shooter and an all-time great passer. defender, smart but couldn't move his body properly to defend. Not athletic or fast but crafty on offense. Nash is a great ing player and if you think otherwise you need to go search him on YouTube and educate your dumb ass. D'Antoni is also a great offensive coach ( at coaching defense) and the combo of D'A + Nash undeniably helped Nash's stats and career. Nothing wrong with that.

[ambchang]

You're very simplistic.

The offenses took shots. That's literally where it ends.

No, the emphasis on pace and space is what D'antoni brought to the table.

Nash had a usage rate that was similar with D'antoni vs. with Gentry. The major difference is that Gentry would not settle for as many "bad" shots as D'antoni. The pace of those teams were almost the same.

One sacrificed execution for immediacy. The other sacrificed immediacy for scheme. One sacrificed scheme for pace. The other orchestrated pace into spacing into greater efficiency. One abhorred FTs. The other embraced FTs. One called for a 4-corners spread/delayed screen dribble drive centered around ball-dominant Nash. The other utilized high post, motion-based schemes that saw players without the ball moving to make life easier on Nash. One played Amare as a C. The other as a PF. One played 7 players. The other played 10. One played Amare as the tallest player on the floor. The other played him alongside Frye, Lopez, or Collins the majority of the time.

But, yes, they both had Nash, Amare and a basketball, and pushed pace so they were the same.

The views on FTs were one difference, but the general philosophy was to have the PG drive those teams and let them run the show, with the PG making almost all the decisions. Gentry shared a wealth a little more, but there was no mistake the Nash was there. High pick and rolls were still the predominant bread and butter of those Phoenix teams.

Popovich has stated he brought in how to manage his aging stars after watching Gentry handle Nash and Hill, and brought the pace/space, high-post motion offense with side to side ball movement with cutters from Gentry's 2010 Suns.

I missed that, but that offense was based off of what D'antoni brought to the Suns in the first place.

Do you even remember what a Nash/D'Antoni offense looked like?

Yes, Nash dribbling the ball, pick and roll, kick out for a shot.

Yes, lots of threes, but Nash almost never let go of the ball until setting someone up in a scoring position. He'd dribble, over dribble, circle, and restart.

Gentry often allowed Hill to handle PG duties with Nash on the perimeter.

They are worlds apart.

Like I said earlier, there are certainly differences, but the primary principle is nonetheless having Nash handle a majority of the decision making.

And, lastly, do you really believe Pops would favor an opportunistic, chaos-based offense that he destroyed routinely over the high-post, motion/spacing-based offense that swept his ass by a team with a coach who was his former assistant?

Dude. Just ing stop.

That's where our fundamental difference lies, I do not see D'antoni's offense as chaos based. He had sets with Nash being a primary creator on offense through a series of screens. D'antoni introduced a workable small ball by opening up the paint for dribble penetration, something that Nelly tried, but didn't come to the same level of success. Gentry simply took those basic principles, refined them, but still had Nash as the brains of it. Pop took those, refined it further, and made it work. it's the same way as how Phil Jackson took the Rudy T Hakeem teams and refined them for those Shaq three peat Lakers, and Pop took that and refined it to create those 2005/07 Spurs teams. Are they the same? No, but the basic principles basically came from that.

[ambchang]

Nash was an all-time great shooter and an all-time great passer. defender, smart but couldn't move his body properly to defend. Not athletic or fast but crafty on offense. Nash is a great ing player and if you think otherwise you need to go search him on YouTube and educate your dumb ass. D'Antoni is also a great offensive coach ( at coaching defense) and the combo of D'A + Nash undeniably helped Nash's stats and career. Nothing wrong with that.

Nash is a "great" player, but two time MVP and is somehow in the conversation as the one of the greatest offensive player of all time? No.

[ambchang]

Not only that, you could look at him in Dallas before Phoenix. Not to mention that because Nash didn't do as well post D'Antoni...maybe it has something to do with his freaking age.

Nash would be known as a borderline PG if he put up numbers and success like he did in Dallas.

[ambchang]

This argument against Harden is stupid a f

You're not talking about a guy that is a scrub, you're talking about someone that played the 2, was a top scorer and made the plays anyways before being point. I've hated on Harden a lot, but if you are actually making the argument you are (where you set your premise like an idiot) you seriously have not watched many rockets games this year...

I mean...have you even seen the roster they are boasting? How do you not feel stupid wasting your time on that nonsensical post. Its like saying that Duncan was useless and since Pop's system wins at such a rate without him in the lineup he must not have been that important.

Who said Harden is a scrub? I am comparing him to a two time MVP, and favourably. You are so butthurt you've gone blind.

[djohn2oo8]

Who said Harden is a scrub? I am comparing him to a two time MVP, and favourably. You are so butthurt you've gone blind.

You said D'antoni was responsible for those great stats, when Harden was averaging 7 assists per game before D'antoni. He has always been a very good passer. The difference now, is he is getting more rebounds and has better shooters around him.

[ambchang]

You said D'antoni was responsible for those great stats, when Harden was averaging 7 assists per game before D'antoni. He has always been a very good passer. The difference now, is he is getting more rebounds and has better shooters around him.

So you have trouble knowing 7 < 12. Congratulations.

[djohn2oo8]

So you have trouble knowing 7 < 12. Congratulations.

So you have trouble knowing passing to players who suck at making shots lead to less assists?

[ambchang]

So you have trouble knowing passing to players who suck at making shots lead to less assists?

Yeah Dwight suck.

The rockets have a horrible roster outside of harden this year. Which player ever got 5 more assists by having better teammates?

[cd98]

Spurs feared Nash enough to put Bowen on him. No doubt he was a legit star, but overrated as a superstar.

[JMarkJohns]

No, the emphasis on pace and space is what D'antoni brought to the table.

Nash had a usage rate that was similar with D'antoni vs. with Gentry. The major difference is that Gentry would not settle for as many "bad" shots as D'antoni. The pace of those teams were almost the same.



The views on FTs were one difference, but the general philosophy was to have the PG drive those teams and let them run the show, with the PG making almost all the decisions. Gentry shared a wealth a little more, but there was no mistake the Nash was there. High pick and rolls were still the predominant bread and butter of those Phoenix teams.



I missed that, but that offense was based off of what D'antoni brought to the Suns in the first place.



Yes, Nash dribbling the ball, pick and roll, kick out for a shot.



Like I said earlier, there are certainly differences, but the primary principle is nonetheless having Nash handle a majority of the decision making.



That's where our fundamental difference lies, I do not see D'antoni's offense as chaos based. He had sets with Nash being a primary creator on offense through a series of screens. D'antoni introduced a workable small ball by opening up the paint for dribble penetration, something that Nelly tried, but didn't come to the same level of success. Gentry simply took those basic principles, refined them, but still had Nash as the brains of it. Pop took those, refined it further, and made it work. it's the same way as how Phil Jackson took the Rudy T Hakeem teams and refined them for those Shaq three peat Lakers, and Pop took that and refined it to create those 2005/07 Spurs teams. Are they the same? No, but the basic principles basically came from that.

You're talking in circles...

In my first post I acknowledged the base numbers likely being overrated because of usage and system. But the underlying skills as being under appreciated.

I then suggested that D'Antoni was a vastly overrated coach because he could only do that one thing. And that one thing created stats. Without Nash, his thing produces stats and pedestrian win totals. Nash, meanwhile was in four Conference Finals with three coaches and three different systems.

I then cited that Gentry's teams with less true talent but more effective roles, was more efficient, offensively, defensively, shooting, etc.

You keep saying "pace and space" like that's some goddamn bingo that claims you a win.

Yes, Nash and pace and space were common denominators with D'Antoni/Gentry, but you have don't absolutely nothing to backup the claim that they were the same, or were used the same.

I've said a dozen different "tweaks" as you put it.

These tweaks are evolved, and fundamentally adjust tooth the intent and the outcome of the offense. You even admit to this, but either can't make the connection that such changes your argument, or ignore that it does.

Nash was a PG. Of course he's going to be a PG in each system. He's a PG who works best in a fast-paced tempo, and with the ball in his hands. So of course he's going to be utilized that way. Especially after the failed Terry Porter era.

But you simply fail to understand the difference twist D'Antoni and Gentry.

I've explained it.

The fact you ignore "chaos" when D'Antoni literally used the word to describe his offensive philosophy proves just how little you understood what you thought you saw.

[DAF86]

You said D'antoni was responsible for those great stats, when Harden was averaging 7 assists per game before D'antoni. He has always been a very good passer. The difference now, is he is getting more rebounds and has better shooters around him.

The difference isn't that, the difference is Harden having more the ball on his hands and playing at a higher pace, so yeah, D'antoni's style is the main difference between 12 and 7. Harden with these same teammates but under any other coach wouldn't be averaging 12 apg, because they probably would be playing at a slower pace but, most importantly, because none other coach would have made Harden the literal PG of the team.

[djohn2oo8]

The difference isn't that, the difference is Harden having more the ball on his hands and playing at a higher pace, so yeah, D'antoni's style is the main difference between 12 and 7. Harden with these same teammates but under any other coach wouldn't be averaging 12 apg, because they probably would be playing at a slower pace but, most importantly, because none other coach would have made Harden the literal PG of the team.

No they are not playing at a better pace. Right now they are 14th of 30 in Pace. Last year they were 7th out of 30. They are actually not playing as fast as you think. D'antoni deserves credit for making Harden the actual PG of the team and encouraging him to play for more rebounds. The assists though are coming because Anderson, Ariza and Gordon are both near 40 percent shooting 3's which opens up the floor. As Harden's assists are coming from playing pick and roll with lobs to Capela, which Dwight never wanted to run. But who cares as long as he keeps doing it.

[Will Hunting]

The difference isn't that, the difference is Harden having more the ball on his hands and playing at a higher pace, so yeah, D'antoni's style is the main difference between 12 and 7. Harden with these same teammates but under any other coach wouldn't be averaging 12 apg, because they probably would be playing at a slower pace but, most importantly, because none other coach would have made Harden the literal PG of the team.

Houston's pace rating this season: 96.9
Houston's pace rating last season: 97.6

Plz explain how having 0.7 less possessions per game is helping Harden raise his assist totals

[unleashbaynes]

Isn't Harden running point this year? So ball in his hands more?

[gambit1990]

hes underrated at this point if anything

without question. incredibly awful take by op.

[sook]

Who said Harden is a scrub? I am comparing him to a two time MVP, and favourably. You are so butthurt you've gone blind.

djohn addressed it. Look through my posts, you wil seel that 99% of the ones regarding Harden have STRONG criticisms. This was probably the first one where I have defended him, to put matters into perspective.

[FkLA]

Nash and Harden both had/have awesome courtvision. Are they great fits in D'Antoni's system which in turn inflates their numbers? Sure, but that doesn't diminish their talents. You can't just plug anybody in and have them look like stars. Guys like Duhon and Felton might've seen a rise in their numbers but they never controlled games the way Nash did or Harden does, tbh.

[HarlemHeat37]

Nash was overrated at the time, but he has been so over-criticized that he's probably under-appreciated, at this point IMO..

Jason Kidd is far more overrated than Nash, btw..

[DAF86]

Houston's pace rating this season: 96.9
Houston's pace rating last season: 97.6

Plz explain how having 0.7 less possessions per game is helping Harden raise his assist totals

I didn't know that but I did hear something about the Rockets being middle of the pack in terms of pace, that's why I didn't pay much attention to that, although I did thought they might be higer than last season. So I will own up to that. But like I said, the biggest difference to me between 7 and 12 is Harden being the actual PG, and that's all on D'antoni, I don't think any other coach in the World would have made that move.

[DAF86]

Nash and Harden both had/have awesome courtvision. Are they great fits in D'Antoni's system which in turn inflates their numbers? Sure, but that doesn't diminish their talents. You can't just plug anybody in and have them look like stars. Guys like Duhon and Felton might've seen a rise in their numbers but they never controlled games the way Nash did or Harden does, tbh.

Do you imagine our lefty b3aner in his prime under D'antoni?

[FkLA]

Do you imagine our lefty b3aner in his prime under D'antoni?

Manu playing PG under D'Antoni would've been absolutely beautiful, tbh.