Capitalism vs Socialism

[DAF86]

Because the system for a given country traditionally derives from what the vast majority of the economy is using.

Here in the US you have a lot of socialist systems (owned by a cooperative of people or the state), like the military, Medicare, credit unions, farming to an extent, etc, but the system is largely capitalist, and there's heavy protections towards property.

Venezuela, on the other hand, uses largely a socialist system. There's poor protection towards property (ie: property can be seized by the state in the name of the revolution), most every service in the economy is state-run, etc.

Good luck trying to convince orthodox capitalists that a system that taxes you over half your salary is a capitalist one.

In any case, this is just semantics. Call it capitalism, socialism, social democracy, democratic socialism or whatever you want, the truth is that for a system to be sustainable it has to take theories from both sides. Neither system on its own works.

[FrostKing]

Video illustrates the quality in Norwegian leadership.

Also the largest non-European demographic in Norway is Somilian at only 0.5%

The two largest immigrant groups are Eastern European.

[spurraider21]

Did you see the video I posted? The most important business, the one that changed the life of the entire country, is a public Oil business that re-invested its earnings to pretty much fund everything else in the country.

Yaron Brook is the chairman of the Ayn Rand ins ute

i'm honestly not interested in hearing him talk about how glorious capitalism is for 15 minutes. can you explain what he's specifically talking about? venezuelan oil being nationalized? there's a lot there. norweigian?

[midnightpulp]

Video illustrates the quality in Norwegian leadership. Also the largest non-European demographic in Norway is Somlian at only 2%. The two largest immigrant groups are Eastern European.

has nothing to do with "race" (which is a re ed concept anyway). Social stability has everything to do with class division. Closer that division is, the better the stability. Wider it is, less stability. The US has the worst class division in the developed world and thus has the most unstable society in the developed world.

This is also why "race pimping" is a thing here. You tell the poor as rural white the Messicans are stealing his job, the blacks want to turn his neighbor into a haven of drug dealing, and the gays want to get rid of Jesus. What this achieves is keeping him from realizing who the actual cause of his problems are: The corporate class and their political enablers.

On the other side, rich black race pimps like Al Sharpton say, "the white man" is the cause of all their problems. Notice how they never say "rich" white man, just "white man." This ensures the poor blacks and poor rural whites stay in strife to keep either side from targeting the corporate class. Never once have I heard, say BLM, criticize the rich black class, who make their millions and millions, pay lip service to the cause by wearing an "I can't breathe" shirt and then retire to their mansions in white neighborhoods. You can sure as bet Jordan doesn't want to pay more taxes for social programs that help black communities.

[DAF86]

Yaron Brook is the chairman of the Ayn Rand ins ute

i'm honestly not interested in hearing him talk about how glorious capitalism is for 15 minutes. can you explain what he's specifically talking about? venezuelan oil being nationalized? there's a lot there

I'm talking about the video I posted in the OP.

[FrostKing]

has nothing to do with "race" (which is a re ed concept anyway). Social stability has everything to do with class division. Closer that division is, the better the stability. Wider it is, less stability. The US has the worst class division in the developed world and thus has the most unstable society in the developed world.

This is also why "race pimping" is a thing here. You tell the poor as rural white the Messicans are stealing his job, the blacks want to turn his neighbor into a haven of drug dealing, and the gays want to get rid of Jesus. What this achieves is keeping him from realizing who the actual cause of his problems are: The corporate class and their political enablers.

On the other side, rich black race pimps like Al Sharpton say, "the white man" is the cause of all their problems. Notice how they never say "rich" white man, just "white man." This ensures the poor blacks and poor rural whites stay in strife to keep either side from targeting the corporate class. Never once have I heard, say BLM, criticize the rich black class, who make their millions and millions, pay lip service to the cause by wearing an "I can't breathe" shirt and then retire to their mansions in white neighborhoods. You can sure as bet Jordan doesn't want to pay more taxes for social programs that help black communities.

These are two separate discussions. How America ended up in this predicament and how to fix it. If a growing amount of people are unwilling to even unite under a national flag, I'm supposed to increase my tax contribution why?

[spurraider21]

has nothing to do with "race" (which is a re ed concept anyway). Social stability has everything to do with class division. Closer that division is, the better the stability. Wider it is, less stability. The US has the worst class division in the developed world and thus has the most unstable society in the developed world.

This is also why "race pimping" is a thing here. You tell the poor as rural white the Messicans are stealing his job, the blacks want to turn his neighbor into a haven of drug dealing, and the gays want to get rid of Jesus. What this achieves is keeping him from realizing who the actual cause of his problems are: The corporate class and their political enablers.

On the other side, rich black race pimps like Al Sharpton say, "the white man" is the cause of all their problems. Notice how they never say "rich" white man, just "white man." This ensures the poor blacks and poor rural whites stay in strife to keep either side from targeting the corporate class. Never once have I heard, say BLM, criticize the rich black class, who make their millions and millions, pay lip service to the cause by wearing an "I can't breathe" shirt and then retire to their mansions in white neighborhoods. You can sure as bet Jordan doesn't want to pay more taxes for social programs that help black communities.

i love hearing "racially genous" quips thrown into arguments that have nothing to do with race

funniest is when talking about something like universal health care... "sure it works in norway, but they're a small genous country." what the does geneity have to do with healthcare?

[spurraider21]

I'm talking about the video I posted in the OP.

gotcha, thought you were referring to the vid in the post i had just responded to.

yes, norway/denmark/sweden have large public sectors, and are among world leaders in % of population which works for the state (around 30% each).

norway nationalized almost all their natural resources, but they've actually dealt with that responsibly unlike the government of a place like venezuela, though they are still somewhat over-reliant on those industries to fund their programs as they have the resources to get away with it. finland/sweden/denmark dont quite have the same natural resources as norway so they have a more diverse economy, making them potentially more resilient to heavy market swings.

i dont know that nationalization of industries is necessarily required to fund those kinds of social programs though. the US has a higher GDP per capita than all of those countries besides Norway, and we spend substantially more of our national budget in defense than those guys, so you could easily rearrange our spending to some degree, and increase taxes on the wealthy without the hyperbolic "omg they're going to take 80% of my paycheck" nonsense.

the whole point is to find a stable system where you aren't going to have massive portions of your population feeling like they've been left behind while the rich say "let them eat cake." i think socialist critiques of capitalism are valuable, but not necessarily all the solutions (ie it's good descriptively, not necessarily prescriptively). but you can somewhat emulate the outcomes of an imagined socialist society by maintaining a generally capitalist system, but with substantial safety nets, to sort of artificially drag the top and the bottom closer together, rather than overhauling the whole system

[midnightpulp]

These are two separate discussions. How America ended up in this predicament and how to fix it. If a growing amount of people are unwilling to even unite under a national flag, I'm supposed to increase my tax contribution why?

Here's what led us to where we are now.

- The Southern Strategy.

the Southern strategy was a Republican Party electoral strategy to increase political support among white voters in the South by appealing to racism against African Americans.[

- The destruction of the blue collar (all races) class in Middle America via outsourcing and the Reagan tax breaks.

- Evangelicals hijacking the GOP.

"Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them."

- The weaponization of "opinion based" news shows that seeks to create division and stoke fear. Rush Limbaugh was the watershed figure, followed by the Fox News apparatus and now the fake news propaganda being spread on social media.

The reason I left out "Liberals" in this timeline is because, yes, the American right is majority to blame. They saw their power slipping during the Civil Rights Movement, Roe vs. Wade, and the 60's counterculture movement.

BLM, SJWs, Cancel Culture is simply a reaction to the war the American Right has been waging for the last 50 or so years. Yes, these leftist groups are similarly irrational and divisive, but the American Right created the environment for their rise. For me, there's no "they're all the same." The American Right is considerably more detrimental to the US than sunken chested teenage SJWs trying to "cancel" celebrities on twitter or whatever.

[spurraider21]

The Southern Strategy.

no no thats all made up. all the people in the south magically changed from democrat to republican because they had changes in heart and completely shifted all of their political views over the course of 1 election cycle. the south instantly went from defending jim crow and resisting segregation to become republicans who dont see race while the "real racists" are everybody else

[spurraider21]

my favorite talking point in all this is

"LOL Denmark said they aren't socialist, and to stop calling them socialist"

- leftists propose policies of denmark like tuition free college and universal healthcare -

"STOP TURNING US SOCIALIST"

[SpursforSix]

i love hearing "racially genous" quips thrown into arguments that have nothing to do with race

funniest is when talking about something like universal health care... "sure it works in norway, but they're a small genous country." what the does geneity have to do with healthcare?

It has nothing to do with race. I personally think that's a distraction. Just like the "one percent". Being in the one percent doesn't really mean anything. And to group people making $500,000 / year with billionaires is a dishonest argument imo. That on it's own isn't generational wealth. In a large % of cases, it's people who worked their ass off and now make a good living. But it's usually not something they have made their whole career and it's not something that continues on into retirement. As opposed to a billionaire who can make $10,000,000 a year in a crappy money market account.

Imo, it's the .1% vs. everyone else.

[DMC]

Capitalism was a massive improvement but ultimately failed to cure the underlying issues of Feudalism, massive inequality of wealth and power which is hyper concentrated at the very top.

Social democracy seeks to salvage capitalism by alleviating that issue through broader safety nets to the working class. This is effectively the Nordic model. Still capitalist, but with robust general welfare programs. And no, socialism isn’t “when the government does stuff, and the more the government does, the more socialist it is.” Socialism is where workers own the means of production, capitalism is where owners (capital) owns the means of production. You can have more or less state involvement in either system

states that have tried going full socialist thus far have generally done so via authoritarian regimes, which is typically a recipe for a failed or unstable state. They have also typically had state planned economies, which are also problematic. Socialism could still exist within free markets, basically by switching our current corporate model for worker co ops (look up Mondragon corporation in Spain)

imo social democracy is the best version we’ve seen successfully implemented. Optimized capitalism

Give a couple examples please

[DMC]

i love hearing "racially genous" quips thrown into arguments that have nothing to do with race

funniest is when talking about something like universal health care... "sure it works in norway, but they're a small genous country." what the does geneity have to do with healthcare?

If you understand genetics you should know the answer to that

[spurraider21]

Give a couple examples please

we've been talking about the nordic model quite a bit. aside from them, european countries, generally, are capitalist with stronger safety nets, including varying versions of universal healthcare, and either tuition free or dirt cheap (a few hundred dollars per year) colleges.

If you understand genetics you should know the answer to that

do tell. what does having x amount of black vs white people have to do with the implementation of universal healthcare?

[FrostKing]

i love hearing "racially genous" quips thrown into arguments that have nothing to do with race

funniest is when talking about something like universal health care... "sure it works in norway, but they're a small genous country." what the does geneity have to do with healthcare?

They don't waste time and resources on social awareness. In 2020, every aspect of American life requires atleast a reminder of social rules on basis of inclusion.

Furthermore I have a family member that works for Finnish company and he states they are incredibly transparent. This coming from a German. The Fins don't waste time on tip toeing around people's feelings. Nor would they focus on hiring one specific demographic in the name of inclusion. That's American rubbish.

[spurraider21]

They don't waste time and resources on social awareness. In 2020, every aspect of American life requires atleast a reminder of social rules on basis of inclusion.

Furthermore I have a family member that works for Finnish company and he states they are incredibly transparent. This coming from a German. The Fins don't waste time on tip toeing around people's feelings. Nor would they focus on hiring one specific demographic in the name of inclusion. That's American rubbish.

none of that has to do with healthcare

"we cant fix healthcare because there are other unrelated racial issues" doesnt fly

[BSfromTX]

G. Edward Griffin has some good videos on ideology and collectivism. As for Socialism and Capitalism, they sound great and look good on paper, but like all ideologies, they depend on a trustworthy government to administer. Powerful government and monopolization of money and credit is how these ideologies are crushed. I would be more for a socialistic system if it was national and not global and without a central bank.

[FrostKing]

Here's what led us to where we are now.

- The Southern Strategy.



- The destruction of the blue collar (all races) class in Middle America via outsourcing and the Reagan tax breaks.

- Evangelicals hijacking the GOP.



- The weaponization of "opinion based" news shows that seeks to create division and stoke fear. Rush Limbaugh was the watershed figure, followed by the Fox News apparatus and now the fake news propaganda being spread on social media.

The reason I left out "Liberals" in this timeline is because, yes, the American right is majority to blame. They saw their power slipping during the Civil Rights Movement, Roe vs. Wade, and the 60's counterculture movement.

BLM, SJWs, Cancel Culture is simply a reaction to the war the American Right has been waging for the last 50 or so years. Yes, these leftist groups are similarly irrational and divisive, but the American Right created the environment for their rise. For me, there's no "they're all the same." The American Right is considerably more detrimental to the US than sunken chested teenage SJWs trying to "cancel" celebrities on twitter or whatever.

I blame the Right for destruction of unions, importing cheap labor and allowing business to move overseas

BLM, SJW, and Cancel is social. The right has conceded every significant social issue in the past 50 years. They are fighting an invisible enemy. America is already the most socially liberal nation in the World. Until 2020, I would have agreed their damage is possibly overstated. Not sure anymore. Every industry publicly enacting affirmative action is a good thing?

[FrostKing]

.

[SnakeBoy]

my favorite talking point in all this is

"LOL Denmark said they aren't socialist, and to stop calling them socialist"

- leftists propose policies of denmark like tuition free college and universal healthcare -

"STOP TURNING US SOCIALIST"

That is a good one. On your side I like the old

Capitalism Bad
So what type of economy do you want?
Capitalism

[spurraider21]

That is a good one. On your side I like the old

Capitalism Bad
So what type of economy do you want?
Capitalism

capitalism flawed
so what do we do?
make improvements/adjustments

[ElNono]

Good luck trying to convince orthodox capitalists that a system that taxes you over half your salary is a capitalist one.

In any case, this is just semantics. Call it capitalism, socialism, social democracy, democratic socialism or whatever you want, the truth is that for a system to be sustainable it has to take theories from both sides. Neither system on its own works.

Nova Scotia currently has the highest combined top statutory marginal rate in Canada (54%), and nobody calls Canada a socialist state.

It's simply an outlier over the country's average.

[spurraider21]

Nova Scotia currently has the highest combined top statutory marginal rate in Canada (54%), and nobody calls Canada a socialist state.

It's simply an outlier over the country's average.

how much money would your income have to be for your effective tax rate to even reach 50%? people get hung up on the marginal rates way too much

[Will Hunting]

Good luck trying to convince orthodox capitalists that a system that taxes you over half your salary is a capitalist one.

In any case, this is just semantics. Call it capitalism, socialism, social democracy, democratic socialism or whatever you want, the truth is that for a system to be sustainable it has to take theories from both sides. Neither system on its own works.

A lawyer who lives in Manhattan and makes $1MM a year is certainly getting taxed at a near 50% rate when you factor in state & city income taxes. If you’re factoring in sales tax it’s easily over 50%. Does that make the US socialist?