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I live around center city! Alvarez also is from Philly...but he's not a smart SPurs fan like us, he's just a regular ol fan
1Parker1 - I live near Philly too (Wayne) and nice to know there is a smart Spurs fan like you around!
Either one of you throw stuff at Clinton Portis' mom on Sunday?
I have said it once or maybe twice, and I will ing say it again.
The 2nd most contributing factor to Billups and Hamilton being such stone cold bad asses that they are is their free throw shooting. Yes, I think they're the best backcourt after seeing them up close and personal for the Finals, but I still think Manu and Parker would own their chodes in 2 on 2.
If Manu and Parker shot 90% freakin free throws they'd be the best back court of this era of the NBA.
That's a nice point about using FT% to deciding between the two.
Hey man im serious...You foul billups, hamilton, its pretty much a bonehead move...you foul parker and its a good foul.
I was agreeing with you. I can be serious sometimes.
The problem with GS backcourt is they don't play defense, that is one thing that SA's backcourt has on them. For the FG% Manu's and Tonys' points all come from high percantage areas unlike the Baron and JRich. Besides the FG% Rich/Baron offensively are better than Manu and Tony and also consider the fact for GS that their guards average more steals, rebounds, and blocks. These are just stats though the Spurs do definitely carry the intangibles.
Athleticism: Baron Davis and Jason Richardson
Talent: Jason Kidd and Vince Carter
Intangibles: Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili
Chemistry: Chauncey Billups and Rip Hamilton
Pistons 108 - Orlando 99
Chauncey and Rip combined 62 pts.
Chaucey 37 pts (reg season career high) and 9 assists)
Hamilton 25 pts
Steve Francis 9 pts
So far, everyone agrees: Billups > Parker, and Ginobili > Hamilton. So who's better: Billups or Ginobili? Thats why I like to think that our backcourt is better overall than Detroit's. Remember last year with Parker on him Hamilton missed badly in Game 5. Ginobili can always be called for in the clutch, which I wouldn't give Hamilton. Hamilton is a good scorer when the pressure ISN'T on.
So in other words, I think right now Billups/Hamilton is the best in the league. But come playoff time and minus the injuries, I think we have the best backcourt in the league. But, that said, GS is up there with us and Detroit, as well as NJ.
I'm willing to bet over the last two years Rip has hit as many clutch shots as Manu.
I can certainly think of more game winners at the buzzer for Rip than Manu.
Hamiltions had two these year.
I'm willing to bet over the last two years Rip has hit as many clutch shots as Manu.
I can certainly think of more game winners at the buzzer for Rip than Manu.
, he's hit two just against the Celtics, hasn't he?
TPark is not 1Parker1................I'm female, he's male. He's in SA, I live in Philly. And I don't know where you get off thinking that I vew "my boy's level of play on looks."
Rip is a very clutch shooter as long as he isn't forced to create the shot on his own. But that doesn't mean he isn't a clutch shooter. Remember the '98 NCAA tournament? That's just one that actually meant something (meaning not a regular season game).
Robert Horry doesn't "create" his own shot on those big shots he hits, yet he is one of the most clutch players in the game. Also, Part of the reason you wouldn't point him out as being particularly clutch is because he's got Chauncey next to him who would be the go to guy on practically every team in the league for a big shot.
Last edited by FreshPrince22; 01-04-2006 at 01:17 AM.
I didn't say Manu makes clutch shots, I said hes more clutch as a player. You can give him the ball with the time running low and you can be sure he'll put the ball where it needs to be: either in the hole himself or in a teammates hands who can score. Rip doesn't have that ability, rather, he needs his teammates to get him open for the shot. Thats why I think Manu is more clutch. Game 6 against Seattle anyone?
Disclaimer: I am replying to you saying Rip is not a clutch player in your originial post, not debating who is more clutch.
Pretty flawed logic there. First, by that definition (as I said), that would mean Robert Horry isn't a "clutch player". Since he needs his teammates to get him that open shot.
Second, Rip has Chauncey next to him, so Rip will always be a 2nd option to make the "clutch play". Just as Manu would be if he was next to Chauncey. Chauncey is the best guy in the NBA at making decisions in crunch time so the ball will always be in his hands. Would you say Manu isn't clutch in that situation, just because the ball isn't in his hands to make that play?
Also, You called Rip a "Good Scorer" but not "When the pressure's on". That means you think he's a good scorer, but he can't do what he normally does during the course of the game, in the clutch. Which really isn't the case. Catch and shoot is his game, and that mid-range jumper is even more deadly in crunch time. He has sealed many many games for us on that catch-and-shoot 15 footer.
I'm not saying Manu isn't clutch, but I am arguing your original point that Rip ISN'T a clutch player. He is just clutch in a different way. Rip is a deadly catch and shoot guy in the clutch. Just like Manu is a deadly slash to the basket guy in the clutch. It's really apples to oranges. They are completely different types of players who do different things.
Last edited by FreshPrince22; 01-04-2006 at 03:55 AM.
Its all about the O bro... always has been, always will be...
No, I agree with z0sa.
I applaud Rip's defensive skills, his never ending cycle of picks and rubs to get free for a good shot.
But throughout Rip's career, he has never been seen as one who can create for others. He might make the occasional pass to victory, normally to Billups but he hasn't clearly established a penchant for finding ways to contribute besides his solid play at D and money jumpshot.
Ginobili has a large portfolio of making all teams that he has played for better. Every team he's been on, he has won at the top for every one.
It's just that he'll never look to call his own number 1st. He'll go through the play and then go with what he feels is the best choice. More times than not, it'll be a pass to the correct guy but even when he is forced to shoot, he makes more of those than he misses.
So again, props to Rip, but Manu has the ability to take his game to a whole 'nother level when the situation calls for it.
Man in Black,
Again, I was not trying call Rip more clutch than Manu, but z0sa's original post said:
Which is completely false. Makes it sound like he's money during the game, then all of a sudden he chokes during crunch time. When in fact he is even better at what he does in the clutch.Ginobili can always be called for in the clutch, which I wouldn't give Hamilton. Hamilton is a good scorer when the pressure ISN'T on
Though z0sa started to spin his point in his next post by saying Rip isn't "as clutch", but I never argued that. I still think they're both clutch at what they do.
I lived in Denver when Chauncy Billups played high school there. The dude was so famous, his games were on local TV. Dude was unstoppable... I am not surprised he is a stud in the NBA.
What I'm saying here is that you can't call on Rip for every late game situation. If a team makes a point to stop him, they can. He can't make his own shot. Thats what I mean by hes a good scorer when the pressure isn't on. When teams try to defend him during the course of the game with him running around screens and curls and whatnot, usually his man gets bumped off and hes free for the open shot. But if its late and Rip is curling around a screen, teams will help on D and hes either denied the pass or forced into a bad shot - Rip has never been known as a clutch passer.Ginobili can always be called for in the clutch, which I wouldn't give Hamilton. Hamilton is a good scorer when the pressure ISN'T on
Now, Manu you can give the ball, let him run down the shot clock (if necessary), and then let him make his move, drawing the defense in for a pass to an open man or allowing Manu at least an alright look at the basket. I'm not saying so much that neither is clutch, its just more like Manu is so more able to produce in the clutch, both defensively and offensively. To me, Rip is too one-dimensional and while hes the best at his game of running on screens, he CAN be stopped. Manu its a whole different story.
You have a pretty bad perspective on this as a Spurs fan. Since Bowen is the only guy in the league that "stops" Rip. He can occasionally have a bad shooting night against someone else, but it's rarely because of the defense. He gets pretty much the same looks every game. I'd be willing to be that if Manu had to go against Bowen he could be stopped as well. Luckily for him, he doesn't have to.
that pretty much sums it up.After all, how can you compare a backcourt that hasn?t a played a full season together to Billups and Hamilton, or Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili, both of whom have won les?
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