Redistribution of Wealth vs Creation of Wealth

[Peter]

I'm a JFK liberal and he said it best:

Acceptance of the New York Liberal Party Nomination
September 14, 1960

What do our opponents mean when they apply to us the label "Liberal?" If by "Liberal" they mean, as they want people to believe, someone who is soft in his policies abroad, who is against local government, and who is unconcerned with the taxpayer's dollar, then the record of this party and its members demonstrate that we are not that kind of "Liberal." But if by a "Liberal" they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people -- their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties -- someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and su ions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a "Liberal," then I'm proud to say I'm a "Liberal."

That's me and I'm stickin' to it.

Fire away!

At this point, the only problem I have is when a "liberal" proposal entails nationalizing an industry. If you're for programs to help some needy people buy stuff, well, as much as I'd prefer the charity to come from private sources, I'm not going to care that much about it. JFK's liberalism seemed to embrace this POV. He understood that to reach liberal aims does not mean that you kill the golden goose that has created the wealth. His income tax rate cuts are a prime example. But I'm probably expecting too much from our politics. Take Social Security, for example. If the goal is to ensure that in retirement every American has some source of income, why not make it a true welfare program and give assistance to those who are truly needy? That would be much less costly, more effective and would end inequities such as lower income workers being taxed out the ass to pay benefits to wealthy retirees. Of course, we just had a supposedly conservative Republican president and Congress create another mammoth en lement...

[implacable44]

Let me get this straight, it is your argument that at tier 1 graduate schools, the majority of students are Blacks, Hispanics, etc.?

well no - now you are being cynical and stupid - Are you sure you went to grad school on the dime of the UNCF or some other organization to benefit only minorities. ? Devry doesn't count. I mean I tried to get that white boy scholarship but nobody offered it - they said such a grant or scholarship would be racist in nature - wierd huh or double standard at the least?

As far as acceptance goes it surely matters and of course you have the legacy students who are just about guaranteed entry. the pool you compete with as a white male without legacy status is pretty tight.

[implacable44]

I'm a JFK liberal and he said it best:

Acceptance of the New York Liberal Party Nomination
September 14, 1960

What do our opponents mean when they apply to us the label "Liberal?" If by "Liberal" they mean, as they want people to believe, someone who is soft in his policies abroad, who is against local government, and who is unconcerned with the taxpayer's dollar, then the record of this party and its members demonstrate that we are not that kind of "Liberal." But if by a "Liberal" they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people -- their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties -- someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and su ions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a "Liberal," then I'm proud to say I'm a "Liberal."

That's me and I'm stickin' to it.

Fire away!

so more government programs / funding - maybe government healthcare so more taxes and less ownership of your life and less reward for your hard work. Does this include referencing the courts of foreign countires in your judicial opinions as a part of your liberal activism ?

[Mr. Peabody]

well no - now you are being cynical and stupid - Are you sure you went to grad school on the dime of the UNCF or some other organization to benefit only minorities. ? Devry doesn't count. I mean I tried to get that white boy scholarship but nobody offered it - they said such a grant or scholarship would be racist in nature - wierd huh or double standard at the least?

Such animosity.

Maybe you should have picked yourself up by the bootstraps, instead of relying on others to help you get along.

[implacable44]

Such animosity.

Maybe you should have picked yourself up by the bootstraps, instead of relying on others to help you get along.

good point -- that is exactly what I did - I got a job -- worked full time putting myself through grad school and now I am better for it. You won't hear me complain about it - I just think it is funny how you are trying to deny the reality of what exists. Huge double standard - but then you are probably hypocritical in just about every aspect of your life because that is what you have learned from these terrible en lement programs that have been established -- you know creating - even inspiring people to become "victims" so that the government can save them -- all the while costing me more and more money in taxes.

[JoeChalupa]

Stop spinning and just read it for what it is.

It really isn't that hard but I know that "libera" has become a bad word amongs the conservative crowd and I applaud Rove for doing a great job on that.

I'm not stupid enough to believe that all conservatives are racist, bible-thumping, anti-woman's rights, NASCAR loving, confederate flag waving, war mongering people because they are not.

I'm conservative on many issues but not by limiting other's rights to do it.

[Peter]

Perhaps a "liberal" can help me out. If you're for assistance helping "needy" individuals does that necessarily entail a handout to the middle class? I don't really understand that. Should having a "safety net" for our society entail assisting those who are capable of making it on their own? That is much more costly than merely providing government assistance to the truly needy in our society.

[implacable44]

Stop spinning and just read it for what it is.

It really isn't that hard but I know that "libera" has become a bad word amongs the conservative crowd and I applaud Rove for doing a great job on that.

I'm not stupid enough to believe that all conservatives are racist, bible-thumping, anti-woman's rights, NASCAR loving, confederate flag waving, war mongering people because they are not.

I'm conservative on many issues but not by limiting other's rights to do it.

who is limiting your rights ?

[SpursWoman]

Hey! I got a white-girl scholarship!










Oh, wait ... but it was to a school that was primarily (by coincidence or whatever) hispanic. n/m.

[Mr. Peabody]

good point -- that is exactly what I did - I got a job -- worked full time putting myself through grad school and now I am better for it. You won't hear me complain about it

Really, because your comments sounded like complaints. Maybe I was misinterpreting them?

I just think it is funny how you are trying to deny the reality of what exists. .

You made the comment that being a white male is the worst thing to be and I am denying the reality of what exists?

Huge double standard - but then you are probably hypocritical in just about every aspect of your life because that is what you have learned from these terrible en lement programs that have been established -- you know creating - even inspiring people to become "victims" so that the government can save them -- all the while costing me more and more money in taxes.

From someone who complained about being unfairly treated because of his race, blaming people for becoming "victims" is somewhat hypocritical don't you think?

[Peter]

I'm just amazed that it's 2006 and people still are thinking in terms of race.

[101A]

I'm a JFK liberal and he said it best:

Acceptance of the New York Liberal Party Nomination
September 14, 1960

What do our opponents mean when they apply to us the label "Liberal?" If by "Liberal" they mean, as they want people to believe, someone who is soft in his policies abroad, who is against local government, and who is unconcerned with the taxpayer's dollar, then the record of this party and its members demonstrate that we are not that kind of "Liberal." But if by a "Liberal" they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people -- their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties -- someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and su ions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a "Liberal," then I'm proud to say I'm a "Liberal."

That's me and I'm stickin' to it.

Fire away!

That's the definition of liberal? All is he said is "I Care" and "I believe".

Well, I also:

care about the welfare of the people -- their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties

I even:

believe we can break through the stalemate and su ions that grip us in our policies abroad


So what's the point - there is nothing revolutionary here. I bet he was also for momma, apple pie & baseball!

[Darrin]

[QUOTE=101A]

A gallon of milk was not 89 cents in 1989, nor was gas less than a buck in 1999 - you're about a decade off on each; and btw; inflation has been under control that entire time.

First, the numbers are inverted. Milk was 1.09, the gas was .89 cents. I wasn't talking about national averages; I was talking about the price of goods in the community in which I live.

Our government should be there to help those most unfortunate in our society; but unfortunately the government is ill-equipped to do so, and is about the most inefficient en y in the world at redistributing "wealth" to those in need.

Worker programs, social security, subsidizing farmers for not growing crops, medicare, subsidizing artists - all of these programs have been successful. The problem is, we have become allergic to taxes and suddenly the majority of Americans feel that a progressive tax is unfair when it's been around for 150 years.

Also, there are more and more studies which indicate that money is NOT what the public education system in this country needs (it has more of that than ever in its history) - compe ion is.

I got into trouble when I was younger and had to take an extra year to get through night school. On the last day of my classes, I had stayed in the classroom with an exceptional teacher - full of energy, loved his job, creative in his teaching methods - but this particular day he seemed not himself. It seemed that after working in this same school teaching American History and Science for twelve years, he was going to have to interview for his job.

The state has cut education funding across the board because of financial troubles. The schools in 90% of the cases would not be affected long-term by these budget cuts if the "No Child Left Behind" program had not been enacted. But because the school district has to fight for its life, they down-sized the alternative education program (adult education, special needs such as paralisis, cerebral palsy, ADD, and GED prep). The School District doesn't just work with their community - since the areas surrounding it do not have a strong alternative education program they serve parts of six school districts. The district had two buildings - an old elementary school and the old administrative building. The administrative building was closing; they could no longer guarantee they could keep that school open and not lose more funding for K-12. And since there was going to be two science and history departments, they needed to downsize the staff.

Michigan schools have lost between 1-5% of its state funding. In rural communities, that can mean the difference between new school books or fixing a leaky roof.

So at a time when the Michigan economy is in crisis - GM has cut 30% of its work force in the Motor City - we are educating our kids less. The possibility of advancement for the future will continue to make the problem worse.

It's strange: my wife began life in an even more poor family than yours, on the poor side of a poor Texas town - but now after working two jobs to put herself through college and graduate school, and our family now having pretty much realized the American Dream - has no sympathy or patience for those who won't pick themselves up by their bootstraps and do something with their lives - she is much more adamant in her conservatism than I (a really odd-ball considering she is a professor now at a N.Eastern University).

My mother took us to Latchkey at 5:30 AM in the morning, she went into her job at 6:30 AM, left that job at 5:30 PM, pick us kids up at the house, and took us to her second job cleaning the offices that she worked at in the daytime. She made this extra 40-minute round trip just so that we could see her during the day. Three years into this arrangement the she was let go from her job because the boss sold the company. I realize that's personal, but take it out of the example and look at the larger picture: where does that type of family fit into your wife's thinking? My mother is currently living in a house she inherited from her mother. Where is the social mobility for these families? There's a lot of them around here - two-year college graduates that used to be on the assembly lines for your car. They are unemployed without the ability to re-train because funding for schools have been cut, and having mouths to feed. What do we tell them? Are they lazy?

The solution to poverty is a job,

On this we can agree.

not a government program. I know that is a callous observation, but it is an accurate one. There have been government programs designed to educate people, and help them get jobs, but these have been sparse, and their success has been questionable, just like ALL government, beuracratic programs.

So...what's the point of the legislative body? Is it just to make sure gays can't marry?

The point of this body is to serve the American people. Government assistance isn't a lifestyle, and despite the stereotype, not everyone on Government assistance is milking the system for all its worth.

BTW: Your not having health insurance, as a young man, is a choice, not a condition. I am in the industry, and there is no person less expensive to insure than a young male (you probably pay more for your cable and high speed internet than a major medical insurance policy would cost you).

Wow, thanks! I'll run right out and get it! My lazy ass must not have looked into health insurance plan at my part-time job. And, by the way, my internet and cable is split between four people. I have to pay out of pocket for every single class I take, unless I want to join the military or go into debt for a community college education.

Would you like to take a look at my financial statement?

[Oh, Gee!!]

implacable44 is not sounding very christian-like. Why the personal attacks on Peabody?

[Mr. Peabody]

implacable44 is not sounding very christian-like. Why the personal attacks on Peabody?

I don't know. He touts the importance of being self-reliant and pulling yourself up by the "bootstraps," (meanwhile slamming the less fortunate) and then compains that the system is rigged against him because no one would give him money for college.

What a hypocritical asshole!

[JoeChalupa]

That's the definition of liberal? All is he said is "I Care" and "I believe".

Well, I also:

care about the welfare of the people -- their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties

I even:

believe we can break through the stalemate and su ions that grip us in our policies abroad


So what's the point - there is nothing revolutionary here. I bet he was also for momma, apple pie & baseball!

And for good sex!

Live and let live is my motto....what's the motto with you?

Bottom line is that we'll have to agree to disagree.
My parents worked their way up with only 6th grade educations and fought through the language barriers and yes, racism...and if you don't think it still exists you are fooling yourself.
We were never on food stamps or govt assistance and I'm proud to say that I am who I am because of the values instilled in me by my parents.

Fire away!

[implacable44]

Really, because your comments sounded like complaints. Maybe I was misinterpreting them?



You made the comment that being a white male is the worst thing to be and I am denying the reality of what exists?



From someone who complained about being unfairly treated because of his race, blaming people for becoming "victims" is somewhat hypocritical don't you think?

That is your interpretation of my comments - I am not complaining merely making a statement.

When you are either looking into a tier 1 grad school or looking to get government grants / scholarships for college being a single white male is the worst thing you can be.

i don't care that I was unfairly treated -- I dont even know that it is unfair -- I think it is a double standard and affirmative action is a joke but the point is - those are mere obstacles - part of one person's sad story -- irrelevant if you take the initiative and depend on yourself and not the government.

again- I am not complaining - merely stating facts.

[Darrin]

I'm just amazed that it's 2006 and people still are thinking in terms of race.

Because the Sins of the Father...

I don't know where you live, but I live in one of the most racially divided communities I can imagine. Where I live, there are no African Americans. None. There has been an influx of Arab-Americans and Indian-Americans into the area, but the surrounding communities are white as they come.

See, in the 1970s, the Supreme Court ruled that to fully integrate our schools, districts had to cross lines. In the cities of Detroit as well as Pontiac, white residents fled to neighboring farming communities. The result was an economic windfall - Pontiac and Detroit schools are dilapidated in terms of the buildings and the education provided to the students.

Meanwhile, Communities like Bloomfield Hills (home to a top-3 School in the nation), Rochester, and Clarkston are thriving white-collar communities. And when I say white-collar that's not just a financial distinction, it's a racial one.

We inherit the world the previous generations left. So the financial mobility - the status passed from one generation to the other is light years behind the community that wasn't enslaved, that was integrated into our society. So stereotypes will not die in this area because the majority of African Americans in this area are poorer than whites. If you're poor, you're more likely to be on drugs, do crime. So, while the equation has been reversed, the result is the same - the African Americans are assumed to be less educated, more poor, and less skilled than their white counterpart.

In July, a storm brewed in this area over a new Wal-Mart. A neighboring community to Detroit was the location Wal-Mart had chosen. Citizens complained that a bargain-store would introduce a poor element into the community and there would be more black people and crack addicts, something they apparently wanted out of the their community.

That was July, 2005 not 1955. Race permiates not only this area, but the country we have inherited.

[implacable44]

I don't know. He touts the importance of being self-reliant and pulling yourself up by the "bootstraps," (meanwhile slamming the less fortunate) and then compains that the system is rigged against him because no one would give him money for college.

What a hypocritical asshole!

again I am not complaining UNCF Peabody - I am pointing out truths.

I am not slamming the less fortunate either. I am saying people should not depend on the government - it makes you weak.

*clarification* I did not get money for Grad school - my undergrad degree was paid for in full with an athletic scholarship.

[Oh, Gee!!]

again I am not complaining UNCF Peabody - I am pointing out truths.

How do you know Peabody didn't pay his own way through school?

[implacable44]

implacable44 is not sounding very christian-like. Why the personal attacks on Peabody?

This from an atheist or agnostic or whatever you are? You are demanding I be more Christ like because????? - please do not worry or fear for me as my relationship with Diety is just fine.

[implacable44]

How do you know Peabody didn't pay his own way through school?

I dont -

[Oh, Gee!!]

This from an atheist or agnostic or whatever you are? You are demanding I be more Christ like because????? - please do not worry or fear for me as my relationship with Diety is just fine.

Why do you assume that I don't believe in God?

[implacable44]

it suits me. don't we all assume just about everything when it comes to message boards and the internet. It suits me based on previous comments you have made in other forums. One can't be as stupid as you are and believe in Diety can they ?

[Oh, Gee!!]

it suits me. don't we all assume just about everything when it comes to message boards and the internet. It suits me based on previous comments you have made in other forums. One can't be as stupid as you are and believe in Diety can they ?

Why all the hate?