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  1. #1
    Homer 2centsworth's Avatar
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    I thought this was an excellent article by Thomas Sowell. It's probably the central reason why I converted from being a liberal to conservative.


    http://www.townhall.com/opinion/colu...10/181665.html

  2. #2
    Each Day Offers Potential Darrin's Avatar
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    Wow. What a load of hogwash. The idea of the re-distribution of wealth comes from 200 years of laize-faire economic policy in this country that led to the largest economic collapse in the history of this nation, and allowed the creation of monopolies the likes of Standard Oil. When you can buy the lawmakers, everything is legal. That should tell you, as scandal breaks in Washington, why money needs to be removed from the political system.

    The creation of wealth comes from securing a job. It helps in the production of products and services, and this creates more business opportunities because a surplus of wealth without a place to spend it means there is no adaquate compensation for the job. They are, economically, where this country was at the turn of the 20th Century. Traditional agrarian lifestyles are being abandoned to work in a metropolis. Within the next generation, the majority of the Chinese will live in Urban areas and work in factories. This is good for international business because whereas in the United States we are buying our 3rd or 4th car per household, they are buying thier first. When living 20 miles away from your job suddenly is commonplace, that car goes from a luxury buy to a necessity of life.

    I'm liberal to my core. No zealot like a convert, right? I grew up in a very conservative suburb of Metro Detroit, and my belief system began to change as my world expanded from that small community. We weren't enough for government assistance and we had our own house, but my parents were divorced and the luxury of Catholic school was too much to afford. It took a very generous parish in forgiving a substantial financial debt to keep us out of bankruptcy. My mother worked two, three jobs to make sure my brother and I had clothes on our back and food in our bellies.

    Two years after the divorce, Dad decided to skip out on seeing his kids and the bare-minimum child support he was asked to pay. His bill, although no more than $250 a month for two kids, ran to an excess of $8,000. That's a total of 32 months before he started making payments again. Mom was a victim of a company merger and was let go from her job during this time. If not for a private business that was losing my cousin money, there would have been no source of income for our family. My mother raised two sons on annual income of $15,000 dollars a year in one of the richest counties in the country.

    Luck and prayers: that's how we stayed out of financial ruin. By the time college rolled around, our funds were non-existent, and because of being cursed by age, I was denied all but $200 in pell grants this year (full time, 12 credits at the local community college is $1600 a year plus books). My brother, 5 years ago, received ten times that amount.

    I have no health insurance, and haven't had any since 1998, the last time dad had a job. I have never had a physical.

    In 1990, the average for a gallon of milk in this town was $1.09. This year, the average cost is $2.89.

    A gallon of gas in 1999 was $0.89 cents. Today, it's $2.39. My mother, by the way, is working at the same job she has had since 1998 and she has received a $1.25 increase in her wages over that time period. That increase doesn't cover the difference in a gallon of gas today from 1998.

    For people who live with poverty everyday, it's not some statistic or political tool. It is their reality, just as it's this person's reality to face dead-end jobs, broken schools, and lost hope of a better life. I'm not talking about me. We're a pretty average lower middle-class family.

    I'm talking about the people who used to come into my job at Arby's and solicit our customers for some money or sit in the lobby and talk to themselves. The state closed down a mental health facility and most of their patients were re-admitted to the public with no job, no medication, and no family or friends. Our store was filled with victims of drug abuse. Our manager, a recovering addict himself, would go into halfway houses and offer his services to the staff - if any one needed a job, just let him know. If any one of us asked him for money, he would pull out his wallet and give us $20 or whatever we needed to get through to payday. I once saw him cover $200 for two weeks so that one of his employees could keep from being evicted.

    These are the people who convinced me that idealism is just that - an idea. Life is much more interesting than that and forgiveness, being their for your fellow man, and yes, government assistance programs are necessary components of a compassionate and free society.

    When I go into a restaurant, I want the hostess to be able to count back my change and a well-funded school district and involved parents need to be a part of that. I don't want to walk down the street at 3 AM and be mugged by someone who is either on drugs or just for the love of God, hungry. An educated, employed, and secure public reduces crime. Period. So instead of throwing away victims of crime, or having tougher sentencing guidelines, let's do what works longterm - provide for everyone so that no one becomes desperate. Does that solve all crime? no. But the need to escape the daily lives is the number one reason for drug use. I can think of no one who needs to escape more than those in high-stress jobs at both ends of the socioeconomic scale.

  3. #3
    Homer 2centsworth's Avatar
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    Darrin I understand the struggle of starting off poor. I too came from a broken home and it was me my mom and brother in the projects in Brooklyn and Coney Island.

    My ascent out of poverty came from the ability to create my own wealth rather than having it given to me. That's the point behind the entire article. Being a liberal keeps you poor while being a conservative brings the belief you won't stay poor. See the Cubans who came to this country dirt poor and are now the wealthiest hispanic community. Not a coincidence they are predominately conservative.


    Btw, the great depression was more caused by the pyramid scheme in the stock market.

    Nevertheless, today's market is racially blind and gives everyone an opportunity to create wealth!

  4. #4
    Injured Reserve Vashner's Avatar
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    We where a mixing pot country... hence we like to barter goods and services.

    Other ers know then so they come here like roaches. Yea everyone hates USA... where's the line to get in?

  5. #5
    keep asking questions George Gervin's Afro's Avatar
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    Darrin I understand the struggle of starting off poor. I too came from a broken home and it was me my mom and brother in the projects in Brooklyn and Coney Island.

    My ascent out of poverty came from the ability to create my own wealth rather than having it given to me. That's the point behind the entire article. Being a liberal keeps you poor while being a conservative brings the belief you won't stay poor. See the Cubans who came to this country dirt poor and are now the wealthiest hispanic community. Not a coincidence they are predominately conservative.


    Btw, the great depression was more caused by the pyramid scheme in the stock market.

    Nevertheless, today's market is racially blind and gives everyone an opportunity to create wealth!
    this has become the GOP mantra of today 'opportunity' and belief' as opposed to temporary govt assistance.. well these, 'opportunity', and belief' don't put food on the table nor do they pay for healthcare..

  6. #6
    Damn The Man Mr. Peabody's Avatar
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    Being a liberal keeps you poor while being a conservative brings the belief you won't stay poor. See the Cubans who came to this country dirt poor and are now the wealthiest hispanic community. Not a coincidence they are predominately conservative.
    The first wave of Cubans seeking asylum were predominately wealthy and well-educated.

    To imply that their conservative ideals enabled them to pick themselves up by the bootstraps is misleading. They already had the resources to have financial success upon arriving in America.

  7. #7
    Displaced 101A's Avatar
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    Darrin,

    A gallon of milk was not 89 cents in 1989, nor was gas less than a buck in 1999 - you're about a decade off on each; and btw; inflation has been under control that entire time.

    Sounds like you have had a rough time of it, and I agree, our government should be there to help those most unfortunate in our society; but unfortunately the government is ill-equipped to do so, and is about the most inefficient en y in the world at redistributing "wealth" to those in need. Also, there are more and more studies which indicate that money is NOT what the public education system in this country needs (it has more of that than ever in its history) - compe ion is.

    It's strange: my wife began life in an even more poor family than yours, on the poor side of a poor Texas town - but now after working two jobs to put herself through college and graduate school, and our family now having pretty much realized the American Dream - has no sympathy or patience for those who won't pick themselves up by their bootstraps and do something with their lives - she is much more adamant in her conservatism than I (a really odd-ball considering she is a professor now at a N.Eastern University).

    The solution to poverty is a job, not a government program. I know that is a callous observation, but it is an accurate one. There have been government programs designed to educate people, and help them get jobs, but these have been sparse, and their success has been questionable, just like ALL government, beuracratic programs.

    BTW: Your not having health insurance, as a young man, is a choice, not a condition. I am in the industry, and there is no person less expensive to insure than a young male (you probably pay more for your cable and high speed internet than a major medical insurance policy would cost you).

  8. #8
    Believe.
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    There is a sad story in everyone. Challenges overcome - obstacles avoided - motivation found and goals accomplished with great achievements. For each success story there is also one of failure. Nobody has it as bad as say JOB but everyone has challenges - sadness, defeats and coupled with those life experiences are victories. We all experience them - What is different is how you respond to them.I grew up poor - I paid my way through school working a full-time job - see I am a Single White Male and that might be the worst thing to be because there is no funding for the single white male. there is no UNCF or native american grants -- no quotas to be filled etc... Like I said we all have challenges to overcome -the difference is how you respond to them - do you say screw it and label yourself a "victim" deferring blame and responsibility for your situation on to the government or do you stand up and take control of your life and your situation. Reliance on the government is never -- never a good thing IMO. - Special cir stances aside ( i.e. handicap etc) - You make your life. Don't tell me your sad story because I have my own --- show me your character and integrity -- your resiliant defiance and ability to overcome that this great nation affords you with the freedom bought by folks with a much sadder story than any of us have....

  9. #9
    keep asking questions George Gervin's Afro's Avatar
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    It's strange: my wife began life in an even more poor family than yours, on the poor side of a poor Texas town - but now after working two jobs to put herself through college and graduate school, and our family now having pretty much realized the American Dream - has no sympathy or patience for those who won't pick themselves up by their bootstraps and do something with their lives - she is much more adamant in her conservatism than I (a really odd-ball considering she is a professor now at a N.Eastern University).

    So a single young mother , either by choice or cir stances, chooses to put her self through college. First challenge finding afforfable child care? Second challenge finding a job that would allow her to go to school and support her children including healthcare. Third challenge finfing affordable heralthcare?...Should we as a society help her with through govt assistance? or does she need to pick herself up by the boot strap? or do we write her off?


    Don't tell me your sad story because I have my own --- show me your character and integrity -- your resiliant defiance and ability to overcome that this great nation affords you with the freedom bought by folks with a much sadder story than any of us have....

    This is sort of the caveat of conservatism..everyone has a sad story. I made it so everyone else should..in other words I don't want to sound mean but my viewpoint won't allow for legitimate reasons why some people are poor or need help..

  10. #10
    Believe.
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    It's strange: my wife began life in an even more poor family than yours, on the poor side of a poor Texas town - but now after working two jobs to put herself through college and graduate school, and our family now having pretty much realized the American Dream - has no sympathy or patience for those who won't pick themselves up by their bootstraps and do something with their lives - she is much more adamant in her conservatism than I (a really odd-ball considering she is a professor now at a N.Eastern University).

    So a single young mother , either by choice or cir stances, chooses to put her self through college. First challenge finding afforfable child care? Second challenge finding a job that would allow her to go to school and support her children including healthcare. Third challenge finfing affordable heralthcare?...Should we as a society help her with through govt assistance? or does she need to pick herself up by the boot strap? or do we write her off?


    Don't tell me your sad story because I have my own --- show me your character and integrity -- your resiliant defiance and ability to overcome that this great nation affords you with the freedom bought by folks with a much sadder story than any of us have....

    This is sort of the caveat of conservatism..everyone has a sad story. I made it so everyone else should..in other words I don't want to sound mean but my viewpoint won't allow for legitimate reasons why some people are poor or need help..

    actualy it is more reality - be strong - make your own way. you know be self-sufficient and independent. Like say look at Ted Kennedy - all you need to know about him is what he did when he drove that car off the bridge and left that poor girl to die -- he went home and hid - hoping that someone else would clean up his mess. He depended on other people and he is the leader of this secular progressive - liberal movement-- well one of the high profile clowns anyway.

  11. #11
    keep asking questions George Gervin's Afro's Avatar
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    actualy it is more reality - be strong - make your own way. you know be self-sufficient and independent. Like say look at Ted Kennedy - all you need to know about him is what he did when he drove that car off the bridge and left that poor girl to die -- he went home and hid - hoping that someone else would clean up his mess. He depended on other people and he is the leader of this secular progressive - liberal movement-- well one of the high profile clowns anyway.

    so let's compromise..if the govt were to say "look i will give you a hand up to get on your feet but once you are there you are on your own". That is all I am asking from the govt. Some people want to get out of poverty but need a one time hand up.. I am not a proponent of the continual assistance but rather a 'one time' instance of assistance.. I will not try and defend Ted Kennedy.. he is not the voice you say he is but since it scores political points for the talk radio crowd he is propped up as a 'psuedo' spokesman..

  12. #12
    Damn The Man Mr. Peabody's Avatar
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    actualy it is more reality - be strong - make your own way. you know be self-sufficient and independent. Like say look at Ted Kennedy - all you need to know about him is what he did when he drove that car off the bridge and left that poor girl to die -- he went home and hid - hoping that someone else would clean up his mess. He depended on other people and he is the leader of this secular progressive - liberal movement-- well one of the high profile clowns anyway.
    WTF?

  13. #13
    Displaced 101A's Avatar
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    So a single young mother , either by choice or cir stances, chooses to put her self through college.
    That's great! The definition of "Bootstraps".

    First challenge finding afforfable child care? Second challenge finding a job that would allow her to go to school and support her children including healthcare.
    Problem is, because of stupid bureacratic rules, if she has a job that provides healthcare - she probably makes too much to receive govt. subsidies for education and healthcare - only if she doesn't work, and stays COMPLETELY at the govt. teet, can she get ANYTHING. The system is set up to keep her dependent.

    Third challenge finfing affordable heralthcare?...Should we as a society help her with through govt assistance? or does she need to pick herself up by the boot strap? or do we write her off?
    I certainly don't want to write off somebody trying for a better life for herself and her child. BUT - if she works, our government will throw her AND HER CHILD off of Medicaid - again punished for succeeding. Same as a "progressive" income tax: It's the government way!

    This is sort of the caveat of conservatism..everyone has a sad story. I made it so everyone else should..in other words I don't want to sound mean but my viewpoint won't allow for legitimate reasons why some people are poor or need help..
    And your sort of liberal thinking - assuming conservatives want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, while taking a holier-than-thow at ude does nothing but prop up a system which keeps the poor poor, and with a vicitim mentality. You support programs to help the poor, but you never take a critical look at those programs; which generally perform an exact reverse function from there (generally noble) intentions.

  14. #14
    Displaced 101A's Avatar
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    so let's compromise..if the govt were to say "look i will give you a hand up to get on your feet but once you are there you are on your own". That is all I am asking from the govt. Some people want to get out of poverty but need a one time hand up.. I am not a proponent of the continual assistance but rather a 'one time' instance of assistance..
    So you're conservative!

    Congratulations, Nazi. (just to get you used to being called names)

  15. #15
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    why depend on the government ? where are these people families ? - why is this or that girl a single mother ?

  16. #16
    Damn The Man Mr. Peabody's Avatar
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    I grew up poor - I paid my way through school working a full-time job - see I am a Single White Male and that might be the worst thing to be because there is no funding for the single white male. there is no UNCF or native american grants -- no quotas to be filled etc... Like I said we all have challenges to overcome -the difference is how you respond to them - do you say screw it and label yourself a "victim"
    After taking a look at the Executives and Boards of Directors for Fortune 500 companies, I can tell you that this statement is complete BULL !

  17. #17
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    After taking a look at the Executives and Boards of Directors for Fortune 500 companies, I can tell you that this statement is complete BULL !

    really ? - try to get into graduate school - or get a pell grant or scholarship - might not be true when it comes to the good ole boy network of corporate america but for college -- it does matter.

  18. #18
    Talk is cheap and so is Holt! Peter's Avatar
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    Wow. What a load of hogwash. The idea of the re-distribution of wealth comes from 200 years of laize-faire economic policy in this country that led to the largest economic collapse in the history of this nation,
    When you ignore incredibly high tariff rates and a bungling Federal Reserve, you might have a point.

    and allowed the creation of monopolies the likes of Standard Oil.
    Standard Oil drove down the cost of petroleum products by a huge factor when it was an alleged evil monopoly. Granted, it didn't always compete on the fairest of terms, but if we are looking at the raw economic impact of its operations, it was a net plus for this country. Microsoft's OS became dominant, yet that made the power of computing available to people who would otherwise have no clue as to how to use a PC. The point is that monopolies themselves aren't the necessary evil to economic activity in this country that people assume them to be because their high school history teacher said they were. The monopolies to be concerned about are the ones created by law. Other monopolies come and go in this country over time if they don't continue to innovate. Who's most often in favor of anti-trust action? Less efficient compe ors who find that when they can't compete in the marketplace, the courtroom is a much more pleasant battleground.

    When you can buy the lawmakers, everything is legal. That should tell you, as scandal breaks in Washington, why money needs to be removed from the political system.
    Actually, this tells you that less regulation is needed when it comes to campaign finance. Why should anyone be prohibited from spending their $ as they see fit to express themselves? If anything's changed in the last 20 years, it is the number of wealthy individuals in support of left of center causes. The way I see it, the "powerful" are going to find their way to make their voice heard. So why restrict everyone else?

  19. #19
    I can live with it JoeChalupa's Avatar
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    I don't know where some of you get your ideas of what a liberal is.
    I'm a liberal and have NEVER been any type of government assistance and have been working since I was old enough to pick tomatoes in the migrant fields.
    Being a liberal does NOT keep you poor.
    Stop listening to what Rush Limbaugh, Sean insHannity, Lara Ingram and all the other conservatives pundits spout to their listeners.

    I'm a liberal and damn proud of it.

  20. #20
    Believe.
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    I don't know where some of you get your ideas of what a liberal is.
    I'm a liberal and have NEVER been any type of government assistance and have been working since I was old enough to pick tomatoes in the migrant fields.
    Being a liberal does NOT keep you poor.
    Stop listening to what Rush Limbaugh, Sean insHannity, Lara Ingram and all the other conservatives pundits spout to their listeners.

    I'm a liberal and damn proud of it.

    please define your meaning of liberal then

  21. #21
    Damn The Man Mr. Peabody's Avatar
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    really ? - try to get into graduate school - or get a pell grant or scholarship - might not be true when it comes to the good ole boy network of corporate america but for college -- it does matter.
    Right, because when I was in graduate school, all I saw were minorities.

    Come to think of it, I barely saw any minorities in my upper-level undergrad courses.

  22. #22
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    Right, because when I was in graduate school, all I saw were minorities.

    Come to think of it, I barely saw any minorities in my upper-level undergrad courses.
    I am not talking about Pisson University clown - I am talking abotu Stanford - Duke - Harvard - Columbia - and how was that funding you got - from the UNCF?

  23. #23
    I can live with it JoeChalupa's Avatar
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    please define your meaning of liberal then
    I'm a JFK liberal and he said it best:

    Acceptance of the New York Liberal Party Nomination
    September 14, 1960

    What do our opponents mean when they apply to us the label "Liberal?" If by "Liberal" they mean, as they want people to believe, someone who is soft in his policies abroad, who is against local government, and who is unconcerned with the taxpayer's dollar, then the record of this party and its members demonstrate that we are not that kind of "Liberal." But if by a "Liberal" they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people -- their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties -- someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and su ions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a "Liberal," then I'm proud to say I'm a "Liberal."

    That's me and I'm stickin' to it.

    Fire away!

  24. #24
    Damn The Man Mr. Peabody's Avatar
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    I am not talking about Pisson University clown - I am talking abotu Stanford - Duke - Harvard - Columbia - and how was that funding you got - from the UNCF?
    Let me get this straight, it is your argument that at tier 1 graduate schools, the majority of students are Blacks, Hispanics, etc.?

  25. #25
    Talk is cheap and so is Holt! Peter's Avatar
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    Depending on the program, you might not see any Americans at all. That's the scary part. The K-12 education system in this country is failing to produce students who can take advantage of the opportunities present at the university level.

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