Duncan: the greatest defensive power forward ever

[Darrin]

Duncan is a center.

Since when?

[ShoogarBear]

He's the best player of his generation, hands down. I think Karl Malone, Bob Pet , Elvin Hayes, and Kevin McHale may have something to say about his all-time spot. I wouldn't know how to rank those 5 players.

Pet I can't intelligently comment on. He was clearly THE best power forward of the NBA's first 25 years. That's probably all you will ever be able to say.

Hayes, no way. He was a great low post scorer but nowhere near the defender. Also had a reputation for being selfish and not stepping up in big games. And Wes Unseld was the leader of those Bullets teams.

McHale was also a great low post scorer and defender, but was never a great rebounder and never the focal point of either the offense or the defense. Also a notorious black hole on offense (with some reason). Plus he had ridiculous support on the front line (imagine if Tim played PF alongisde Dirk and Yao).

Malone, despite all the (somewhat well deserved) hate for him in Spursland, has impressive credentials on both the offensive and defensive end. Tim has an obvious edge in shotblocking. You can argue that the Spurs offense essentially runs through Tim, while Malone always worked off Stockton. And then of course, you have the rings, which to my mind (and most everyone else) seals the deal.

[ShoogarBear]

Since when?

You have to excuse tlong. He hasn't seen a good NBA game in over three years.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Malone, despite all the (somewhat well deserved) hate for him in Spursland, has impressive credentials on both the offensive and defensive end. Tim has an obvious edge in shotblocking. You can argue that the Spurs offense essentially runs through Tim, while Malone always worked off Stockton. And then of course, you have the rings, which to my mind (and most everyone else) seals the deal.

I was going to suggest that from a defensive standpoint the argument could be made for Malone, but worried that I might get shot for that belief. He was dirty as but he got the job done against guys like Dave and Tim. He managed to guard Duncan as well as anyone ever has in 2004 playing at the age of 93.

[conqueso]

Wilt Kareem and Ewing?


And why hakeem is a center? he can shoot outside he played faceing up basketball so why you consider him as a center?

Kareem averaged 4.1 blocks and 17 rebounds per game in '75-'76.

Ewing's best averages were 4 blocks ('89-'90) and 12 rebounds ('92-'93) per game.

Wilt averaged 27.2 boards in '60-'61. We'll never know how many blocks per game he averaged, but it's estimated by some to be 6 or more.

Compare to career best 4.5 blocks ('91-'92) and 13 boards ('90-'91) for Robinson and 2.9 blocks and 13 boards for Duncan in '02-'03.

Now Robinson, if considered in the company of centers, is clearly among the best in terms of defensive stats. Duncan, when compared with people who play the game like he does, is not very impressive. What's even more interesting is that his rebounding and blocked shot stats haven't increased since DRob retired.

Kareem was an amazing defender, especially early in his career. Some consider Ewing to be the best defensive center of the modern era (even though I don't really agree with that). I'm sure a lot of people will disagree with Wilt, so here's my justification. I know a lot of people like to play the "that was a different era" card, and for the sake of this discussion I'll grant that it made a big difference. But Wilt still averaged more that double Duncan's career best. I don't care what era he played in, he was a better rebounder than Duncan, especially in terms of desire. He didn't just stick his long ass arms up and catch every shot that careened off the rim like Duncan does. He used to fight mother ers for the boards, which is why he could outrebound other players of similar height (like Darrall Imhoff, for one). One-on-one against Russell, he always did better on the boards and limited Russell's offensive production (most of the time).

And far as Hakeem goes, good jump-shooting does not a power forward make. Just because you can shoot doesn't mean you're a pf. Take Brad Miller for instance, or Sabonis. Hakeem played back to the basket against most defenders, but against taller, longer guys who could block shots (i.e. Ewing and Robinson), he stepped outside and made quick moves to the hoop or shot jumpers. Granted, he slowed down latter on and relied more on his jumper, but early in his career he was a prototypical center (whatever that means).

[baseline bum]

Ewing better than Hakeem defensively? No way. Hakeem was so much quicker off his feet than Ewing.

EDIT: my bad, I missed the part where you said you didn't agree with Ewing being the best defensive center of the modern era

[conqueso]

Um, see the thread le. We are talking about DEFENSE. 90% of the things you are talking about when you guys are comparing David vs. Tim have to do with offense.

Once again, when they were both on the court, David was the center on defense.

I don't entirely agree with that. While it might be true that Robinson would man up against the opposing team's center, that was usually because it wouldn't be wise for Duncan to guard an offensive powerhouse like Shaq and get in foul trouble. The same can be said for some great power forwards...DRob would man up against Garnett and Webber frequently. Does that make him a PF? It's not always about who you guard, but how you guard them.

[ShoogarBear]

I was going to suggest that from a defensive standpoint the argument could be made for Malone, but worried that I might get shot for that belief. He was dirty as but he got the job done against guys like Dave and Tim. He managed to guard Duncan as well as anyone ever has in 2004 playing at the age of 93.

Malone was an incredible defender. He wasn't exceptionally tall or a great leaper, but he was about the strongest guy in the league and very quick. He gave both DRob and Duncan fits.

The funny thing about Malone is that, except for being dirty, his game was even more "boring" and fundamental than Tim's.

[T Park]

Something else to piss off the locals here.

IMO, Duncan has and is a better player than David Robinson.

Duncan can get his points from other places, where Robinson wasn't the greatest of jump shooters.

He was IMO better defensively though, just on his speed and agility.

Duncan though, in a tight game, seems to make clutcher shots than David used to as well.

Duncan seems able to carry the team better as well.


Flame away.

[conqueso]

IMO, Duncan has and is a better player than David Robinson.

Oh , here we go again....

[ShoogarBear]

T Park, I don't think many people (exceptttt a few) would argue that Tim isn't a better overall basketball player. No question his offensive skills are more highly developed.

I do think that Duncan is nowhere near the defender that DRob was. Even in DRob's last year, I think he was a more effective defender of the paint than Duncan was (although it's hard to separate out their individual contributions). In fact, if there's one area where Tim has been a tad overrated, it's probably his defense.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Something else to piss off the locals here.

IMO, Duncan has and is a better player than David Robinson.

Duncan can get his points from other places, where Robinson wasn't the greatest of jump shooters.

He was IMO better defensively though, just on his speed and agility.

Duncan though, in a tight game, seems to make clutcher shots than David used to as well.

Duncan seems able to carry the team better as well.


Flame away.

That's one of those great questions that will never be answered. Duncan has never played on a team without a first rate supporting cast, while Robinson consistently had good records with less than stellar support. I think you're right about the defensive end of things. They're about equal in terms of their mental grasp of the defense, but Robinson's athleticism allowed him a little more room for error.

[mookie2001]

Something else to piss off the locals here.

IMO, Duncan has and is a better player than David Robinson.

Duncan can get his points from other places, where Robinson wasn't the greatest of jump shooters.

He was IMO better defensively though, just on his speed and agility.

Duncan though, in a tight game, seems to make clutcher shots than David used to as well.

Duncan seems able to carry the team better as well.


Flame away.

duncan is better than robinson
but it would have been close had we had better players and not so many coaches from 92-97

robinson got screwed over by his overall clutchness rating again, you take a away the video they still play of barkleys shot, and olajuwon being the best in the nba, in the same division, and his clutchness would be considered 100% better, even if he he still won two les with duncan

robinson was a fine jumpshooter, if you take out the bankshot he was better than duncan

defensively there is no comparison robinson was a hawk, him and olajuwon were the greatest ive seen

[T Park]

I do think that Duncan is nowhere near the defender that DRob was. Even in DRob's last year, I think he was a more effective defender of the paint than Duncan was (although it's hard to separate out their individual contributions). In fact, if there's one area where Tim has been a tad overrated, it's probably his defense.

I agree.

But OVERALL, Duncan is the far better player.

Duncan has never played on a team without a first rate supporting cast, while Robinson consistently had good records with less than stellar support. I think you're right about the defensive end of things. They're about equal in terms of their mental grasp of the defense, but Robinson's athleticism allowed him a little more room for error.

I would say last year's team wasn't STELLAR.

Your bench consisted of Rasho, Beno, a broken down Glenn Robinson, Tony Masseburgh, and the only good one off the bench was Horry.


It was Duncan, Ginobili, Horry, and once ina while Parker, that won the ring.

David, I don't think, would've won a championship with last year's squad.

[mookie2001]

i wouldnt call that inflamatory
















see melmart1 in my sig

that should cause the collapse of society

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Your bench consisted of Rasho, Beno, a broken down Glenn Robinson, Tony Masseburgh, and the only good one off the bench was Horry.


It was Duncan, Ginobili, Horry, and once ina while Parker, that won the ring.

David, I don't think, would've won a championship with last year's squad.

I'd still take that supporting cast over any squad that Robinson had to play with, with the exception maybe being the 95 squad. That was a pretty good team but those 95 Rockets were a ing buzzsaw in the playoffs.

A supporting cast consisting of an All star shooting guard, the most clutch playoff shooting role player in recent memory, plus a blossoming PG and a perennial DPOY candidate is still a pretty good supporting cast in my book. , Shaq was able to turn half of that into three rings.

Are any of Robinson's teams that good?

(BTW, if I had to make a call one way or another I'd say that Duncan is probably the better, but only by a hair.)

EDIT: I'm going home now so in the event that someone wants to argue what I've posted all I'm trying to say is that the amount of big differences in the Spurs organization between the early nineties and now makes conclusive analysis difficult, if not impossible.

[T Park]

robinson was a fine jumpshooter, if you take out the bankshot he was better than duncan

No way no way no way.

Duncan's range, and form is so much better than Robinson's its not even funny.


Duncan knocks down that top of the key jumper quite a bit, and can nail that long one from the baseline quite a bit IE last year in game 7 VS Detroit.

robinson got screwed over by his overall clutchness rating again, you take a away the video they still play of barkleys shot, and olajuwon being the best in the nba, in the same division, and his clutchness would be considered 100% better, even if he he still won two les with duncan

The 90-91 team should've done better. Especially Davd going against the likes of Alton Lister, Tom Tolbert, and other stiffs.

92-93 I believe had a great team, but the coaching sucked to high heaven.

[mookie2001]

form?
david JUMPed when he shot, unblockable jumper against rik smits. the ball arch was perfect, the ball fell from the sky making the rim bigger

duncans no joke but hes flatfooted and a line driver

dont remember the 03 robinson, he lost a lot of that

[T Park]

I remember the pre 03 robinson, and the joke was he looked like a player from NBA Live when you held the button down too long.

David's jumper is nowhere near as good as Duncan's.

David got alot of his points from his quickness to the basket and ability to just beat the living out of guys to the basket.

[ShoogarBear]

I remember the pre 03 robinson, and the joke was he looked like a player from NBA Live when you held the button down too long.

Whether or not you agree with this, that's pretty damn funny.

And you guys realize this thread is dangerously close to getting whottted?

[T Park]

Yeah I know, I just thought of that.


But I started watching Spurs basketball in 87, and have prob seen 98% of the games since then.

I remember Dave in his prime, and I see Duncan now.


Duncan is just the far better player OVERALL, and offensively.

DEFENSIVELY its obviously David, IMO, hes ONE OF the best defensive centers EVER.

Duncan though, is a better ball handler, better shooter, better passer at times, equal in rebounding, and prob a little smarter at the GAME.

Hes also got a bigger love for the game wich has kept him going unlike DRob who pretty much played cause he was 7'1, was so talented he couldn't help but play, and he got millions and millions for it.

[Darrin]

Hes also got a bigger love for the game wich has kept him going unlike DRob who pretty much played cause he was 7'1, was so talented he couldn't help but play, and he got millions and millions for it.

I agree with this. It may sound like a slight, but D-Rob had the important things in perspective, and basketball is just a game.

Feel free to correct me if I wrong.

[T Park]

No your right.

He had life and family before basketball wich is great.

Duncan does too I assume, but he loves the game too, wich is a great combo.

[TDfan2007]

Duncan has never played on a team without a first rate supporting cast, while Robinson consistently had good records with less than stellar support.

See 02-03 championship team, and 01-02 team.

[TDMVPDPOY]

td = g.o.a.t

shaq all talk