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So, let's resume the whole thread, in two lines:
PistonsNation: "### "
SpursTalk: "
(PistonsNation, looks like you found a raw nerve....)
You forgot about Chris Bosh and Dirk.
If you ask me you have to give it to Bowen for being able to put the clamps on at least 2 of the top MVP candidates this season in Dirk and Kobe.
Vs. Kobe
FGM-FGA 3PM-3PA AST TO
Nov. 29 9-33 0-6 0 3
Mar. 6 17-32 3-8 3 2
Mar. 10 11-29 1-5 4 2
Mar. 30 9-26 0-6 2 6
Vs. Dirk
FGM-FGA 3PM-3PA AST TO
Nov. 5 12-20 4-5 2 0
Dec. 1 3-13 1-1 3 2
Mar. 2 6-15 1-5 1 2
April 7 11-24 1-3 2 0
Bowen had a great year against these two and for the most part was a lockdown defender in key situations. Melo had a tough time against him and so did the rest of the leagues top scorers. When Bowen was shutting people down 9 times out of 10 the Spurs won. Having Duncan behind him should not be a knock against him as Ben has had Billups, Prince, Rip and Rasheed surrounding him. Defense is not the most statistically engaged part of the game. To get a true sense of a players defensive ability you must actually watch the games to see what he does and we all know that the Spurs are too "boring" to watch.And if you are the type that lives and dies on stats that try looking at the players offensive stats that go up against Bowen instead of looking at his.
So, let's resume the whole thread, in two lines:
PistonsNation: "
SpursTalk: "
(PistonsNation, looks like you found a raw nerve....
So, let's resume the whole thread, in two lines:
PistonsNation: "
SpursTalk: "
(PistonsNation, looks like you found a raw nerve....
There's only about five other threads of the same subject.
You can't really write down the "defensive stats" and say here's the comparison.
Bowen doesn't do anything that comes up in a stat sheet, but he's the best perimeter defender in the game.
I think the voting will be very close for this award.
Voting will not be close for you avatar Kori. That's a winner!
Bruce's contributions and his impact on the game cannot be measured in sheer head-to-head stats.
Unless, of course, you take the time to look at the top 25 scorers in the NBA. Compare their season scoring averages against the rest of the league versus what they scored against Bowen.
Bowen and Artest shuts down the opposing scorer better than anyone in the league. Artest didn't play in enough games to warrant consideration.
Bowen will win it this year - book it!
Doesn't Rasheed usually matchup against the tougher big man? I know Ben usually wants nothing to do with guys like Duncan and KG.
Bowen great on and off the ball. Ben doesn't rate so great when it comes to on the ball. Sheed's a much better on the ball defender and imo he's the best big man defender on the Pistons.
Sheed does play Duncan very well. Sheed plays KG better in the post, where Ben really does a good job on him outised the paint. Ben isn't the best man defender. I admit that, but by the same accord he's not a slouch. He's more a help defender, which has never detered him from getting the DPOY in years past.
I believe that true. If so, that would allow Ben the opportunity to roam, block shots from the weak side and protect the paint. Perhaps the Pistons faithful can confirm this.
One thing it true, mo other big man in the league gives Duncan the headaches that Rasheed does.
I thought we'd already had this argument.
Both players are deserving. I will not be upset or suprised if either if then win it. However my vote goes to Bowen.
It is unimaginable that in 2 or 3 or 4 years when Bowen retires that he will not have recevied at least one DPOY. Plain madness.
Ben had a statistically down year. It wasn't a bad year, but it was not up to the standards that he has set. Yes, he still ranks top ten in Boards, Blocks and Steals but his numbers have definetly taken a hit.
I will not even attempt to argue which of the 2 is more important to their respective teams. It's a dumb argument to have. Their is no way to ascertain a definable winner in that discussion. It'd all be opinion. Whats important is that both make a trememdous impact for their teams.
Where Bowen gets screwed is obviously in the stats. There are no numbers that indicate the impact he has. Where are the stats that show how many times Bruce denied his man the ball? Where is the stat that shows how late into the shot clock Bowen makes his man hold onto the ball w/ no shot. Where is the stat that shows how many poor shots were taken due to his defense? Where does it show how his scrappiness mentally effects some of the best players in the L?
Nothing that he does shows up on a boxscore. But in todays world of interent stat tracking, all people look at is the boxscore, and they ignore what his presence does to an opponent.
Yes much of what Ben does is also not displayed in a stat sheet, but in comparisn to Bowen, much, much more of his work and effort is tabulated.
Also sooo many of the so called sports 'experts' including writers, analysts, tv personalities, radio talent. etc etc watch very few of the games played in a season. Not to mention the east coast guys typically watch more east coast games. Half of these clowns rely on SportsCenter to get thier information. And that is another instance where Bowen is negatively impacted.
You will often see Ben on a weekly or nightly high light w/ a big block, or you'll see a 20 rebound game showcased. But you won't see ESPN scroll through 20 plays where Bowen simply shut down his man.
And because of that, these 'experts' do not see much of Bowen. They remember all the Ben high lights and assume he is far and away the leader for the DPOY.
I'd love for Ben to get his 4th. It would be awesome. But IMO he did not have same caliber of performance that he has in the past. He was not as consistent game in and game out. Also our game is more reliant upon offense than recent years. In past seasons we had many more close games where he HAD to be awesome for us to win. Whereas this year as long as he showed up, we had a very good chance at a victory. Sure, Ben won a few games this year w/ some timely blocks....but it was very little when compared to what we used to require of him.
Bowen on the otherhand, had to be consistent all year for the Spurs to aquire many of the wins they got. Especially with Duncan hobbled. IMO he had to be better this year than ever to makeup for injuries to teamates.
Good luck to both of them. Like I said in the beginning, I won't be mad no matter which of them gets it. But if the award is mine to give, I hand it over to Bruce.
If there is any doubt, look at my sig. Kobe is the best scoring threat in the league and if he says Bruce is the best defender, then you should take heed.
"It'll be a good contest. Both guys play hard."
I guess I'm kinda paraphrasing what some other posters have written, but the numbers you posted aren't relevant. It's apples and oranges. You can't expect a guy who guards perimeter jump shooters to have high rebounding or block totals...that's just not a fair measuring stick. If those were the important qualifications, no perimeter player would EVER win the award. But it's the only thing that we keep stats on, so it's seductive to try to use those numbers as if they actually mean something.
Meaningful defensive statistics that could be used to compare players playing different positions would take the following form. First, you would have to figure the points scored and field goal percentage per 48 minutes for each player in the league. Then you would have to calculate how many minutes Bruce or Ben spent guarding a particular player. Then (and this is the hard part), you would have to determine the points scored and field goal percentage of that player during the time either Bruce or Ben was guarding them. You take that player's averages for the same period of time without being guarded by Bruce or Ben and compare them to the averages for the period of time when they were guarded by them. The difference between the two numbers would give you a rough "Defensive Effectiveness" calculation, which could be compared among different players playing different positions on the floor. The same could be done for the disparity in opponent's rebounding. Blocks shouldn't be weighted very heavily though, since it's obviously easier to get blocks when you play around the rim than when you're defending a quick guard shooting long-range jumpers.
Incidentally, this was the same method that Carlisle's staff purportedly used when they "independently" determined that Ron Artest was the best defender in the league the year he won DPOY.
Unfortunately, no one (not even 82games) keeps track of that kind of . Well, maybe Darrin does, but no one else.
I think Bruce Bowen is very deserving of the DPOY this year whether he gets it or not, but I thought I'd do what just you said anyway with a few premier wing players. Mind you, I don't know if Bruce Bowen was always the primary guy defending each player, as I did not watch most of those games, so "against Bruce" really is "against the Spurs." But, at any rate:
DWYANE WADE
Against Bruce: 33.5 ppg, 45% FG
Season stats: 27.2 ppg, 49.5% FG
CARMELO ANTHONY
Against Bruce: 25.0 ppg, 43.2% FG
Season stats: 26.5 ppg, 48.1% FG
KOBE BRYANT
Against Bruce: 30.0 ppg, 38.3% FG
Season stats: 35.4 ppg, 44.9% FG
VINCE CARTER
Against Bruce: 27.5 ppg, 37.5% FG
Season stats: 24.2 ppg, 43.0% FG
LeBRON JAMES
Against Bruce: 32.0 ppg, 53.1% FG
Season stats: 31.4 ppg, 48.0% FG
RAY ALLEN
Against Bruce: 22.3 ppg, 48.0% FG
Season stats: 25.0 ppg, 45.3% FG
MICHAEL REDD
Against Bruce: 23 ppg, 47.3% FG
Season stats: 25.4 ppg, 45.0% FG
Seems like Bruce does a really good job at guys like Vince Carter and Kobe Bryant and forces them to shoot a lot of jumpers to bring down their FG% but they still get their points. Pure shooters like Redd or Allen, Bruce occasionally does well, but also will give up some good shooting nights to them. And, Bruce does not do to well against bigger, stronger guys like LeBron or strong slashers like Wade.
I know those stats are not completely accurate again since Bruce did not always defend those guys throughout the entire games, but I don't have the access to game footage to go through every possession only Bruce defended those guys in each game. At any rate, Bruce generally does a better job on those players than most of the league, but I'm not so sure it's overwhelmingly better.
Bruce deserves at least one DPOY just for stuffing Billups' shot in the closing minutes of game 7.
That one kinda impresses me. I guess I always thought that Bowen struggled against Melo's size and athleticism.CARMELO ANTHONY
Against Bruce: 25.0 ppg, 43.2% FG
Season stats: 26.5 ppg, 48.1% FG
It's not really even about those kind of stats for Bruce Bowen.
It's about games like .. when Zach Randolph or Chris Bosh were going off on the Spurs this season, Bowen was switched onto them and rendered them useless (I don't think either one of them scored when he was on them). It's about going into the playoffs and being ready to guard anyone and everyone. From shutting down Shawn Marion and making him look like a 7th grader to chasing Rip through screens all day and then switching over to Chauncey in the 4th and getting a game sealing block. (Sorry, but it had to be mentioned).
There is absolutely nothing anyone can learn about Bruce Bowen by sitting and compiling stats. But if you watch this guy 82 games a year and see this ~6'6, under 200 pound guy doing whatever it takes and whatever you ask of him, night in and night out, you'll really appreciate him. He watches so much game tape it's ridiculous. He comes early to practice almost everyday. In the offseason, he was there almost every day at 6:30am getting a 3 hour workout in early so he could go home and be with his newborn son.
I don't expect anyone other than true Spurs fans to really appreciate Bowen. And I almost don't expect him to win the award. But after not missing a game in 4 1/2 plus seasons and being the absolute best perimeter defender in the game at almost age 35, the guy deserves it.
Marc Stein ESPN:
DEFENSIVE PLAYER
Bruce Bowen
Throw out Bowen's undeniable (Cal State Fullerton) advantage with this voter and you'll still reach my conclusion. Or at least you should.
Perimeter defenders have never been more limited by the rules in how much they can use their hands on D, yet Bowen's legend -- and ability to frustrate scorers like Ray Allen -- only grows. He's also having perhaps his best stopper season, judging by all the complaints about him, at a time when the true legend at the rim behind him is not nearly as mobile as we're used to seeing because of Duncan's season-long bout with plantar fasciitis.
Ron Artest missed half the season after forcing his way out of Indiana. Two other natural contenders (Marcus Camby and Mourning) didn't quite play enough (games or minutes) to bid for the top slot. Duncan, Minnesota's Kevin Garnett and Detroit's Ben Wallace are always contenders here as well, as are Utah's Andrei Kirilenko and Marion and two of my up-and-coming faves: Gerald Wallace and Atlanta's Josh Smith.
But I have to take someone from one of the two most feared defenses in the league, so it's Bowen or Big Ben. And I'm going with the guy who probably guards more players of different sizes than anyone.
Stein's ballot:
1. Bruce Bowen, San Antonio Spurs
2. Ben Wallace, Detroit Pistons
3. Andrei Kirilenko, Utah Jazz
October prediction: Wallace
Stein knows his . He also hasn't changed his pick for Spurs to win it all.
Sooooo true..
He does deserves it but more than likely he wont win it.
The voters honestly dont care about DPOY so they go with the lazy pick, and rely on stats, so Big ben usually wins it.
Im not bashing Ben, I would love to have him on my squad,(ooh baby would I
But I agree with "Pistons < Spurs", why even debate on who wins it, if your agruement is based on stats? That would make Ben the clear cut winner if you go with numbers.
Is that what you're looking for? Approval from Spurs fans?
(Nice Sean Elliot pic by the way)
Kori, I absolutely appreciate what Bruce Bowen does on defense. I just responded to SenorSpur's suggestion to llok at some of those top scorers in the league and see how they do against the Spurs. I said it wasn't very accurate for a number of reasons.
And, the way you describe Bruce Bowen, I'm sure there are many Pistons fans and proponents could say similar things on behalf of Ben Wallace. People will look mainly at his rebounds and blocks, but Ben does so many other things that also don't show up on the stat sheet. Ben is one of the few centers in the league that will man-up without double-teams on EVERY SINGLE center the Pistons face. Shaq plays well on him, but he does as good a job on Shaq by himself as anyone in the league. The poster who suggested Rasho does a better job on Shaq has not seen enough times Ben has played Shaq. Single covering Shaq alone allows defenders to stay home and prevents Shaq teams from having a third competent scorer, and has, as history showed us, resulted in more wins for the Pistons against Shaq-led teams than most other teams.
If there was a stat on "DEFLECTIONS," I would bet Ben Wallace would be at or near the top of that category. Ben is one of the best--probably not the best, but one of them--big men at switching on pick-and-rolls and covering the perimeter player. Just as you list the times Bruce has covered big guys like Bosh or Randolph, Ben has switched on point guards and other perimeter players at game-deciding possessions and has also prospered. I've seen Ben switch on Allen Iverson and stay in front of him.
In closing minutes of games, Ben has blocked or shut down the likes of Shaquille O'Neal, Kevin Garnett, Pau Gasol, Dirk Nowitzki, Andrei Kirilenko, Allen Iverson, Kobe Bryant, and Tim Duncan (that was last year in one of the regular season games).
I could go on, but my point is as much as Spurs fans dote on the wonders Bruce does on defense, Pistons fans have similar feelings on about all the little things Ben does besides rebounding and blocked shots. Oh, and Ben is a top 10 player in STEALS. At the center position. These examples don't even really scratch the surface on what Ben does on defense from a TEAM DEFENSE standpoint.
Take nothing away from Bruce Bowen. I think he's an amazing defender. And, I think he deserves a DPOY. But, I just wanted to say that Ben has statistical quantifiable support with respect to his defense AND he has those intangibles that Spurs fans talk about with respect to Bruce.
they still get their points cause A) Bowen doesn't guard them EVERY minute they play, and B) Bowen's great defense shines brighter when it matters(4th quarter or big plays) so those numbers don't paint the picture
In that same article Stein picks Boris Diaw for most improved (not bad), but his runners up are off. Tny Parker and Carmelo??? What about David West and Mike James?
And another thing, if we hold those superstars to their average, that is a great accomplishment. Mainly because those superstars always bring their A game vs. Spurs.
nkdlunch,
I qualified everything you said in my post. Did you read anything but those stats?
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