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Wow you're ignorant...
You do know that what Bowen does on the court..... The HUGE impact he creates on the floor is never on stats?
These two undrafteds make their living as defenders in the league and the two seem to be at the top of most peoples DPOY ballots. So, here's how they shape up in some of the major defensive catagories.
btw - both have played in 81 games.
Bruce Bowen
Off. Reb. : 35, 0.4pg
Def. Reb. : 284, 3.5pg
Tot. Reb. : 319, 3.9pg
Stls. : 79, 0.98pg
Blks. : 30, 0.37pg
PF: 191, 2.4pg
Ben Wallace
Off. Reb. : 300, 3.7pg (#1 in the league)
Def. Reb. : 618, 7.6pg (#5 in the league, #6 drpg)
Tot. Reb. : 918, 11.3 ( #4 in the league, #4 rpg)
Stls. : 145, 1.79 (#7 in the league, #10 spg)
*also, #1 in steals per turnover
Blks. : 178, 2.2pg (#5 in the league, #9 bpg)
PF : 160, 2pg
Wow you're ignorant...
You do know that what Bowen does on the court..... The HUGE impact he creates on the floor is never on stats?
wutup zeke11!
too bad the most important defensive categories cannot be summed up in numbers.
Same with Ben. Ben covers so much ground. He changes the game on D like Chauncey does with his offensive prowess. Why the harsh words so quick.
I thought this would be good debate, with out the name calling...
I see ya Reppin. Go Pistons!
No, it's not. You can't compare stats between a C and a SG/SF, plain and simple.
^ Exactly.
On the other hand you CAN compare the fact that Bowen does very well against bigger offensive players, where Ben is usually Shaq's ragdoll.
I think the truth is that if voters rely on numbers to decide the DPOY, Bruce Bowen has absolutely no chance to win. If voters rely, instead, on the credit that coaches and players give to intangibles and immeasurables, Bowen has a great chance. The quality of a player's individual defense is remarkably difficult to judge because there are too many variables to account for. I'd like to see Bowen win, if for no other reason than the man deserves that award for at least one season, given that he has been one of the two best perimeter defenders in basketball for the last 5-6 years. It's almost a lifetime achievement award at this point.
Numbers don't tell the whole story, and I think it's foolish to suggest that they might.
Who isn't?? Bowen does do well on a dynamic group on perimeter players. No question. Both players have loads of intangibles.
I know you can't grade everything off numbers, but those stats don't like, Numbers are a perfect science.
Ben covers the easiest part of the game.....
He guards slow players who can't shoot.
Bowen guards Kobe, Lebron, Allen, T-Mac, Artest, Peja, etc..
He gives all of them off-nights with defense....
Defense is not summed up by numbers, and even though Ben gets those...he does not amount to the impact bowen makes for this team, because the Spurs depend ALOT on his defense as well as on their own.
Bowen should get it, but since there are MANY ignorant people like you in this world, he'll get robbed off it again.
It can still be a good debate, and it has been a good debate all year. But the impression left from your first post appears to be that Ben should win it on basis of his stats.
From all we had to go on it looked like you were resting your argument on a stat comparison between guys who play completely different positions and styles, as well as throwing dirt on Bruce's chances when anyone who has ever talked about Bowen's defense says that it's impossible to quantify. That may not have been your intention but it come across as a weak take to start a thread on, and that will get you flamed around here.
IMO if the DPOY is a Center he should be able to decently guard Shaq. Ben sucks at it, Rasho defends Shaq better than Ben.
On the other hand Bowen can succesfully defend, Kobe, Lebron, etc.
Owned.
Now he must take his bag of candy and get up'd somewhere else.
Did you forget Chauncey and RIP?
I remember when RIP joined the whining club.
If you want to go my numbers and PER... Duncan should have won the last two years instead of Wallace so I would be careful how much weight you put on numbers.
Stop. Ben is just as valuable for the Pistons as Bowen is for the Spurs.
Also it is unfair to say Ben covers the easiest part of the court considering he's undersized for the position. He also covers quicker players. More than any front court player in the league Ben is able to play like a free safety in football. He isn't just some claude who stands in the paint. He even gets some of his blocks off the perimeter on guards and alot of his steals in the backcourt pertering guys up the court.
Stick up for your guy but don't kill your arguement by discounting Big Ben's defensive effectiveness.
, I think it's the games that Bruce played against Dirk that will get him the award. He's giving up how much size to a major MVP candidate and he managed to slow him down considerably.
I wouldn't consider it highway robbery if Wallace won it again, but I think Bruce is the more deserving one.
I agree Ben and Bowen are equaly valuable. Let's face it, Ben will win it ONLY because of these reasons:
- Pistons have best record
- He plays more flashy
- He is bigger and has an afro
First of all, I'm not AS ignorant as some people.......
Ben is not as valuable as Bowen is for the Spurs, he's the best center in your team.... Bowen is not our best SF, yet he starts for our team... doesn't that tell you something? Ben covers the easiest part and if he's undersized, then the whole NBA is undersized. He never covers quicker players unless it's on a pick and he can't help it. Ben doesn't cover the guards, he intimidates them.... that part I admit works. The Pistons were not as good as a defensive team this year as the past years. I'm not claiming that should be the reason Wallace shouldn't win it, but that just means they didn't really need him as much. The Spurs wins come off defense, all season and since Duncan came into the team.... but since Bowen helped with the SG-Streaky Guards... Let's just say it's been easier.
Killing an argument?
You're not even arguing, you claim with your first post that Bowen has no chance.
So true. You never even seen his named mentioned for the award when he played with the Bullets.
No I didn't say that, I just posted some relevent numbers. I know numbers aren't everything, but they're not made up. The NBA is not undersized. What are you talking about? I'm stating that at 6'8-9 (questionable) that most of Ben Wallace's nightly assignments are 7' and up.
We're still a great defensive squad. The difference is we have an offense now. The D didn't go anywhere, and Ben is still the back bone of it.
I hope Bowen wins it. I think he is long overdue the award.
Wow! How come we didn't see it before. Stats don't lie, Ben Wallace is the best defender the world has ever known.
Wow! How come we didn't see it before. Stats don't lie, Ben Wallace is the best defender the world has ever known.
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