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i was going to write a reply but you pretty much covered everything i wanted to say, even the native indians example i was planing to give.
i would just like to add that america's servitude towards Israel never stops to amaze me. USA = Israel's .
I see, so I should hold the American and the Israeli governments to the same standards I hold terrorists. I've come to expect more from them than insurgents but perhaps I was pushing it, they appear to be on the same ing uncivilized level I guess
i would just like to add that america's servitude towards Israel never stops to amaze me. USA = Israel's .
So are you saying the Palastinians occupied that land BEFORE the Jews were ever there?
From Wikipedia
Zionism and Aliyah
The first wave of modern Jewish immigration to Israel, or Aliyah (òìééä) started in 1881 as Jews fled persecution, or followed the Socialist Zionist ideas of Moses Hess and others of "redemption of the soil". Jews bought land from Ottoman and individual Arab landholders. After Jews established agricultural settlements, tensions erupted between the Jews and Arabs.
Theodor Herzl (1860–1904), an Austrian Jew, founded the Zionist movement. In 1896, he published Der Judenstaat (The Jewish State), in which he called for the establishment of a national Jewish state. The following year he helped convene the first World Zionist Congress.
The establishment of Zionism led to the Second Aliyah (1904–1914) with the influx of around 40,000 Jews. In 1917, the British Foreign Secretary Arthur J. Balfour issued the Balfour Declaration that "view[ed] with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people". In 1920, Palestine became a League of Nations mandate administered by Britain.
Jewish immigration resumed in third (1919–1923) and fourth (1924–1929) waves after World War I. Arab riots in Palestine of 1929 killed 133 Jews, including 67 in Hebron.
The rise of Nazism in 1933 led to a fifth wave of Aliyah. The Jews in the region increased from 11% of the population in 1922 to 30% by 1940. 28% of the land was already legitimately bought and owned by Zionist organizations plus additional private land owned by Jews. The southern half of the country is the barren and mostly empty Negev desert.The subsequent Holocaust in Europe led to additional immigration from other parts of Europe. By the end of World War II, the number of Jews in Palestine was approximately 600,000.
In 1939, the British introduced a White Paper of 1939, which limited Jewish immigration over the course of the war to 75,000 and restricted purchase of land by Jews, perhaps in response to the Great Arab Uprising (1936-1939). The White Paper was seen as a betrayal by the Jewish community and Zionists, who perceived it as being in conflict with the Balfour Declaration of 1917. The Arabs were not entirely satisfied either, as they wanted Jewish immigration halted completely. However, the White Paper guided British policy until the end of the term of their Mandate.
British Mandate of Palestine
As tensions grew between the Jewish and Arab populations, and with apparently no support from the British Mandate authorities, the Jewish community decided it would have to rely on itself for defense.
Arab nationalists opposed to the Balfour declaration, the mandate and the Jewish National Home, instigated riots and pogroms against Jews in Jerusalem, Hebron, Jaffa and Haifa. As a result of the 1921 Arab attacks, the Haganah was formed to protect Jewish settlements. The Haganah was mostly defensive in nature, which among other things caused several members to split off and form the Irgun (initially known as Hagana Bet) in 1931. The Irgun adhered to a much more active approach, which included retaliation to attacks and initiation of armed actions against the British, while the Haganah often preferred restraint. A further split occurred when Avraham Stern left the Irgun to form Lehi, which was much more extreme in its methods and unlike the Irgun, refused any co-operation with the British, even during World War II.
These groups had an enormous impact on events and procedures in the period preceding the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, such as Aliya Beth-the clandestine immigration from Europe, the forming of the Israel Defense Forces, and the withdrawal of the British, as well as to a great degree forming the foundation of the political parties which exist in Israel today.
Establishment of the State
Ben Gurion pronounces the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel on May 14, 1948 in Tel Aviv.Main article: Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel
In 1947, following increasing levels of violence together with unsuccessful efforts to reconcile the Jewish and Arab populations, the British government decided to withdraw from the Palestine Mandate. The UN General Assembly approved the 1947 UN Par ion Plan dividing the territory into two states, with the Jewish area consisting of roughly 55% of the land (60% of which is considered part of the inhospitable Negev Desert, and all of which is absent of any religiously significant sites), and the Arab area roughly 45%. Jerusalem was planned to be an international region administered by the UN to avoid conflict over its status.
Immediately following the adoption of the Par ion Plan by the UN General Assembly on November 29, 1947, David Ben-Gurion tentatively accepted the par ion, while the Arab League rejected it. Several Arab attacks on Jewish civilians soon turned into widespread fighting between Arabs and Jews, this civil war being the first "phase" of the 1948 War of Independence.
On May 14, 1948, before the expiry of the British Mandate of Palestine at midnight on May 15, 1948, the State of Israel was proclaimed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#...t_of_the_State
No nation, other than the ancient nation of Israel and later again in 1948 with the rebirth of the 2nd Nation of Israel, has ever ruled as a sovereign national en y on this land. A mighty Jewish empire extended over this entire area before the Arabs --- and their Islam --- were even born! The Jewish People have one of the most legitimate Birth Certificates of any nations in the world. Every time there is an archaeological dig in Israel, it does nothing but support the fact that the Jewish People have had a presence there for well over 3,000 years. The national coins, the pottery, the cities, the ancient Hebrew texts... all support this claim...
http://www.masada2000.org/
HAHA Dumbass
And none of that matters. The fact is that an outside pressence was given control over land that was not theirs. You would never support that in any other context than what has occured there.
It doesn't matter because Manny says so?The United Nations says it does matter.
BTW, the Israeli's weren't an outside presence they were living in the territory.
And who did the land belong to Manny? If it wasn't the Arabs then what's the problem? It was divided with land given to both the Arabs and the Jews, sounds fair to me. Of course if someone were anti-semitic...
Educate us my friend.
Damn, theres a new one. Someone calling me anti semtic simply because I argue against Israeli actions and legitimacy.
See, the UN says that they are legitmate, but you don't want to follow the UN any other time do you? Only when convinient. And as I asked before, would you support the UN coming and taking a few states from the US and forming a Native American nation? I think not.
But if the UN gave half of the US up for the formation of a Native American nation... and then gave them nukes... then it would be okay.
[QUOTE]I didn't call you anti-semitic, the quote was "Of course if someone were anti-semitic...". If the shoe fits wear it.
[QUOTE]I don't see how answering that is relevant to the present discussion but I don't follow their decisions blindly one way or the other. <shrugs>See, the UN says that they are legitmate, but you don't want to follow the UN any other time do you?
Hypothethics and side issues aren't the most effective way of disputing an issue Manny. Bring something real to the table.Only when convinient. And as I asked before, would you support the UN coming and taking a few states from the US and forming a Native American nation? I think not.
Who's giving who nukes?
Why do I bother? They hypothetical is very relevent. It shows how hipocritical the United States policy concerning situations like Israel is. And that is a cornerstone as to why diplomacy in the region never works. NOBODY HAS ANY CREDIBILITY.
Theres no reason for the United States to be involved with the exception of political capital gained for supporting Israel in this country. Washington knew all about the trouble foriegn engtanglements get you into, and the war on terror can be traced directly to this one.
Well, we've got these French built nuclear reactors being fueled by French reactor fuel. Of course Israel promised (wink wink) they weren't building nuclear weapons. Easy for the countries (France, Britain) to look the other way while encouraging Israel go and provide a pretext for peacekeepers to re-enter the Egyptian Green Zone and reopen the Suez Canal.
All the while, the US knows this is going on as early as 1960 but decides to look the other way as well.
gee you mean sunni arabs don't kill sheite arabs.. and there wasn't any violence today against hamas by other palestinian arabs loyal to abbas... I guess we can blame all that on Israel too.... funny how the press here will talk about the families of those killed by israeli s s .. but won't mention the kutasha rockets that killed israeli soldiers the day before.... and their families....
i will save that quote for discussions on why USA attacked Iraq.
Israel has nuclear weapons.
oh the horror where is the outcry...
RAMALLAH, West Bank - Hundreds of Palestinian security forces loyal to President Mahmoud Abbas went on a rampage against the Hamas-led government, riddling the parliament building and Cabinet offices with bullets before setting them ablaze in the most serious violence since Hamas won January elections.
The riots Monday cast doubt on renewed calls for Palestinian unity by leaders of Abbas' Fatah movement and Hamas, raising new fears the Palestinians were headed toward civil war.
It also coincided with heightened violence with Israel following a blast on a Gaza beach that killed eight civilians, and prompted Hamas to call off a 16-month truce.
Palestinians say an Israeli artillery s fired at militants' rocket-launching operations caused Friday's explosion. Israeli military officials said Tuesday, however, that an army investigation will conclude a Palestinian mine likely caused the blast. The military panel was expected to issue its findings later in the day.
Abbas, a moderate who was elected separately last year, has been locked in a bitter power struggle with Hamas, which does not recognize Israel and has refused to disarm its militia, despite punishing cutoffs of international funding. The dispute, which has spilled over into militias loyal to both sides, has focused largely on control of the powerful security forces.
Twenty Palestinians have been killed in infighting over the past month — mostly in Gaza, Hamas' stronghold. Monday's violence signaled that Fatah is now ready to move the conflict to its West Bank power center.
Late Monday, hundreds of members of the Fatah-dominated Preventive Security force shot out the windows of the parliament building before storming the two-building Cabinet complex, where they smashed furniture, destroyed computers and tore up do ents. No casualties were reported.
Shooting wildly in the air, the mob then set fire to one of the Cabinet buildings, gutting the fourth floor. When a fire engine approached the scene, one gunman lay on the road, preventing it from reaching the building.
"Every time they touch one of ours in Gaza, we will get 10 of theirs in the West Bank," said one member of the security force. Dozens of gunmen from a pro-Fatah militia joined the mob.
The crowd also set fire to the parliament building and a Hamas office. Both blazes were quickly contained. Abbas' presidential guard later arrived to guard the burnt-out buildings.
Late Monday, Fatah gunmen briefly abducted a Hamas lawmaker, Khalil Rabei, after attacking his office and setting it on fire. Rabei said he was kicked and threatened before he was released.
Abbas' personal guard granted refuge to Rabei and nine other Hamas lawmakers, and was ordered to escort the men home safely.
The rampage in Ramallah followed an attack by Hamas gunmen on a Preventive Security installation in Gaza, which set off daylong clashes that left two people dead and 14 wounded.
Abbas was in Gaza at the time of the rampage, where he has been holding negotiations with Hamas in hopes of ending the political deadlock.
"The president strongly condemns the attacks and the assault against the public ins utions and the building that took place in the West Bank tonight," said a statement issued by Abbas' office.
Early Tuesday, several thousand Hamas supporters demonstrated outside the Palestinian parliament building in Gaza City. They condemned the violence in Ramallah, and threatened retaliation against the Preventive Security forces.
"What happened today in Ramallah is very shameful and I think the president did not use all his efforts to prevent it," said Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri.
Hamas planned another demonstration in Ramallah later Tuesday, and Fatah planned a protest in the West Bank town of Jenin.
Officials said Abbas had appointed a retired commander to serve as a military adviser and liaison to the Hamas-run Interior Ministry. The appointment of Lt. Gen. Abdel Razek Majaide, who is respected by Fatah and Hamas alike, could help to ease tensions.
Internal tensions have ed since Abbas scheduled a July 26 referendum on a plan that calls for recognition of Israel. Abbas has endorsed the plan as a way out of the stalemate, but Hamas objects to the vote.
In a conciliatory gesture on Monday, the Hamas-dominated Palestinian parliament delayed until June 20 a vote on a plan to block the referendum. But the violence cast serious doubts on the efforts to bridge the gaps.
While Abbas was trying to persuade Palestinians to rally behind his peace efforts, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert was in Europe trying to sell his planned West Bank pullback.
In London on Monday, Olmert said he would make "every possible effort" to negotiate peace with the Palestinians but will act unilaterally if no agreement can be reached.
Under Olmert's program, Israel would pull out of most of the territory and dismantle dozens of Jewish settlements — but also retain key areas, including land around Jerusalem and part of the city the Palestinians seek for their capital.
Olmert said the pullout would encompass 90 percent of the West Bank. And he left the door open to future negotiated pullouts even if the initial phase is unilateral and partial.
"What will happen when we will come to the point of the 90 percent of the territories, and the remaining 10 percent remains to be seen?" he said. If "the day will come when the Palestinians will be ready to negotiate with us ... I will then be willing to come to discuss it in detail."
Israel, which withdrew unilaterally from all of the Gaza Strip last year, has repeatedly said it would not negotiate with the Palestinians unless Hamas first disarms its militia, recognizes Israel, and accepts past peace agreements.
Olmert is to meet with officials in Paris on Tuesday.
more bad news for the leftist....
Probe: Deadly Gaza blast not caused by Israel
Eight deaths on beach likely result of explosives planted by Hamas
Updated: 1:50 a.m. CT June 13, 2006
JERUSALEM - An Israeli investigation into what caused an explosion on a Gaza beach that killed eight Palestinians will conclude that the blast was most likely caused by a mine planted by Palestinian militants and not an Israeli s , military officials said Tuesday.
The Palestinians had blamed an Israeli s for the killing of the civilians in the northern Gaza Strip on Friday, and had recognized as a hero a Palestinian girl whose image was broadcast around the world crying over her father’s body at the scene.
While Israel had originally left open the possibility that it was responsible and expressed sorrow for the deaths, senior officials had suggested that Palestinian militants could have planted explosives on the beach and the army opened an investigation.
The military committee looking into the blast is expected to issue its findings later Tuesday.
The committee will announce that Israel was almost certainly not involved in the explosion and it was caused by explosives planted by the Hamas militant group, military officials said on condition of anonymity since the results were not official yet.
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Gunmen rampage in West Bank
Explosives not made in Israel
The blast occurred on the outskirts of the town of Beit Lahia, not far from where Palestinian militants frequently fire rockets toward Israel. Israel often shoots artillery in the area to prevent the rocket launchings.
According to the findings, shrapnel taken from two wounded Palestinians who were evacuated to Israeli hospitals showed that the explosives were not made in Israel, the officials said. In addition, the last Israeli s fired toward Palestinian rocket launchers who operate in the area was seven minutes before the blast and landed 250 yards from the scene, the officials said.
Also, after the blast, Israeli military viewed Hamas militants collecting the shrapnel from the area, in an apparent effort to prevent authorities from revealing that the explosion was caused by explosives it had laid, the officials said.
The results of the investigation are also based on threats by Hamas to stop Israeli naval commandos from landing on the beach after group militants were killed in the area in an ambush by Israeli navy divers last month, the officials said.
The army has accounted for five of six of the s s that it fired in the area Friday evening before the blast, the officials said. The one s that is not accounted for was fired before the five others — more than ten minutes before the blast that killed the Palestinians — and apparently landed further away than the s s that were fired later, the officials said.
© 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
[QUOTE]Based on the strength of your arguements, I too wonder why you bother. Hypothetical means nothing more than conjecture. It's something that's asked out of curiosity (it didn't happen and in the case of your hypothesis it's remote to the point of being laughable) and has no bearing (read relevance) on the discussion.
Why do I bother? They hypothetical is very relevent. It shows how hipocritical the United States policy concerning situations like Israel is. And that is a cornerstone as to why diplomacy in the region never works. NOBODY HAS ANY CREDIBILITY.
Back to the drawing board for thee.
[QUOTE]Actually it's copywrite material so you'll need to get written permission from its author before doing so.
Israel has never admitted to having nukes but it's believed they have between 100 and 200. Nice deterrent for those that would like to see them wiped off the face of the earth.
[QUOTE=jochhejaam]Jews want their state in Palestina, because that's always been their land. You claim that Palestinians should move out and let them have their state on Palestinian land.Based on the strength of your arguements, I too wonder why you bother. Hypothetical means nothing more than conjecture. It's something that's asked out of curiosity (it didn't happen and in the case of your hypothesis it's remote to the point of being laughable) and has no bearing (read relevance) on the discussion.
Back to the drawing board for thee.
now replace jews with indians (native americans) and palestinians with americans. you get:
Indians want their state in Ameriaca, because that's always been their land. You claim that Americans should move out and let them have their state on American land.
I belive someday the hampster in your head will gather enough energy to light up that bulb.
[QUOTE]False! Show me where I said that velik!
When you can come up with a premise that's not an outright lie we can move forward with the discussion.
[QUOTE=jochhejaam]if you support the israel, you support that policy. When jews came to Israel they didn't say: "hey palestinians lets have a kick ass state together". no they wanted a jewish state. And the only way to have that kind of state was to move Palestinians awayFalse! Show me where I said that velik!
When you can come up with a premise that's not an outright lie we can move forward with the discussion.
4,255,120 Palestinians are registered as refugees with UNRWA; this number includes the descendants of refugees from the 1948 war, but excludes those who have emigrated to areas outside of the UNRWA's remit [10]
Thus almost half of all Palestinians are registered refugees.
So do you support exsistance of Israel or not?
[QUOTE]I can't/won't deal with someone that falsely attributes statements to me and tells me what my position is on policy. Enjoy carrying the discussion for me, I'll tune in later to see how I fared.
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