Does Ben Waallace get his # retired by the Pistons?

[DarkReign]

No.

[Vizzini]

I don't know about this one. Take a look at Grant Hill's stat when he was a Piston for six seasons: 21.5 pts 7.76 reb 6.2 ast per game. He shot an average of .475% from the field. He played in an average of 72.5 games a year, he was the 1995 Co-Rookie of the Year, a 5-time All-Star, with 1 All-NBA First Team and 4 All-NBA Second Team honors as well. Does he deserve to have his # retired by the Pistons? I know Ben's stats won't compare to Hill's so I guess you have to look at the intangibles he brought to the team. Ben's first year in Detroit they had a record of 32-50. They flipped that around next year, and the team took off towards their 4 straight ECF appearences. He helped bring a le to Detroit and helped changed the at ude and expectations of an entire franchise. He did not do it alone, and had a tremendous cast around him, while Grant Hill was the main ( and I believe the only) reason the Pistons were in the playoffs when he was playing in Detroit. If you go on winning and the at ude that Ben brought, then yes, you reitre his #, but if you go off of stats and not retiring Hill's #, then no.

[Darrin]

I say no way...he ditched you guys for the Bulls...and it wasn't like he spent most of his career there.

If a dude bails for money like that, when the team was making him a fair offer...and he hasn't spent most of his career with the franchise...you can't retire it...he does not deserve to hang up there with Isiah, Joe Dumars, and Bill Lambeir.

He's not as much of a Piston as those guys were.

I mean...exactly where did he show you guys how much being a Piston meant to him?

Ya'll didn't give up on him, he gave up on ya'll.

So no...

The jersey of Ben Wallace should not hang in Detroit. Yes it hurts player and fans...but Ben should have thought of that before he left for $$$$$.

You dishonor the guys that did stick with you by retiring his jersey.

Well, you have the grant the premise that the Pistons offer was fair. Here's a guy who's never made more than 7.1 million a season and his impact has been that of a player making twice that amount of money.

After 29 games in a Pistons uniform, Rasheed Wallace received a 5-year, 63 million dollar contract from Detroit. The Pistons also signed Antonio McDyess to 4-year, 22 million dollar deal, with an option for a fifth. How is this relevant?

Antonio McDyess - Born September 7, 1974.
Ben Wallace - Born September 10, 1974.
Rasheed Wallace - Born September 17, 1974.

As freakish as that may be, look down in Miami. Dwyane Wade, coming off a season where he's Finals MVP and brings Miami a Championship, perhaps his greatest negotiating position for a new contract, gets an extension.

Ben Wallace has been eligible for a new contract since February, 2003. He had an opt-out clause after the 2002-03 season, and didn't exercise it. In that time, Rip Hamilton (6-years, 63-million), Rasheed Wallace (5-years, 64 million), and Tayshaun Prince (5-years, 45-million) have all gotten paid.

The Pistons made a respectable offer for a 32-year-old free agent, who saw his shots per game cut to the lowest of his Pistons career last season. 4-years, 49 million. That's okay. What's not okay is that Adonal Foyle received a similar deal two summers ago.

What's not okay is the Pistons have seen a 20% jump in attendance in the six year with Ben Wallace versus the six years with Grant Hill, and that's after his first season, when the Pistons averaged 14,000 patrons for a 22,000-seat facility.

This wasn't about the money by itself. It was about security - security in knowing that the team isn't going to try and trade him in 2 years. Security that they will be playing a brand of basketball that will allow them to compete for Championships with Ben Wallace - from being defensive-minded to allowing Wallace to shoot at least 8 field goal attempts a game.

What they've done is bad mangement. If they wanted to get rid of Wallace, do it while they could get something for him. Don't wait until the bank and the talent pool is empty. This is the Pistons' fault, not Ben Wallace's.

[ShoogarBear]

Did he hit any playoff three-pointers?

[awmyplace]

Did he hit any playoff three-pointers?

No

[Darrin]

Did he hit any playoff three-pointers?

Yes. 4-28 in his Pistons' career. The only one I remember came against the Wizards in 2005. With the shot-clock winding down and 37 seconds left on the game clock, he threw up a 3-pointer that brought the crowd to its feet and laughs from teammates. Here's a picture right after he did it:



Edit: Oops. I skipped over "playoff"

[Pistons < Spurs]

Yes. 4-28 in his Pistons' career. The only one I remember came against the Wizards in 2005. With the shot-clock winding down and 37 seconds left on the game clock, he threw up a 3-pointer that brought the crowd to its feet and laughs from teammates. Here's a picture right after he did it:



Edit: Oops. I skipped over "playoff"

LOL I remember that shot!

[Bob Lanier]

Kori says no NBA video, so here's the next best thing: screen caps.

Chauncey... outside for Ben... lets it go... GOT IT! Ben with a triple off glass! There was only a second on the shot clock!

[Lp26]

Well, you have the grant the premise that the Pistons offer was fair. Here's a guy who's never made more than 7.1 million a season and his impact has been that of a player making twice that amount of money.

After 29 games in a Pistons uniform, Rasheed Wallace received a 5-year, 63 million dollar contract from Detroit. The Pistons also signed Antonio McDyess to 4-year, 22 million dollar deal, with an option for a fifth. How is this relevant?

Antonio McDyess - Born September 7, 1974.
Ben Wallace - Born September 10, 1974.
Rasheed Wallace - Born September 17, 1974.

As freakish as that may be, look down in Miami. Dwyane Wade, coming off a season where he's Finals MVP and brings Miami a Championship, perhaps his greatest negotiating position for a new contract, gets an extension.

Ben Wallace has been eligible for a new contract since February, 2003. He had an opt-out clause after the 2002-03 season, and didn't exercise it. In that time, Rip Hamilton (6-years, 63-million), Rasheed Wallace (5-years, 64 million), and Tayshaun Prince (5-years, 45-million) have all gotten paid.

The Pistons made a respectable offer for a 32-year-old free agent, who saw his shots per game cut to the lowest of his Pistons career last season. 4-years, 49 million. That's okay. What's not okay is that Adonal Foyle received a similar deal two summers ago.

What's not okay is the Pistons have seen a 20% jump in attendance in the six year with Ben Wallace versus the six years with Grant Hill, and that's after his first season, when the Pistons averaged 14,000 patrons for a 22,000-seat facility.

This wasn't about the money by itself. It was about security - security in knowing that the team isn't going to try and trade him in 2 years. Security that they will be playing a brand of basketball that will allow them to compete for Championships with Ben Wallace - from being defensive-minded to allowing Wallace to shoot at least 8 field goal attempts a game.

What they've done is bad mangement. If they wanted to get rid of Wallace, do it while they could get something for him. Don't wait until the bank and the talent pool is empty. This is the Pistons' fault, not Ben Wallace's.

This is a really good post

[Please_dont_ban_me]

If he played a few more years there? Sure.

As of now, no. Winning a few DPOY awards doesn't warrant that.

[ShoogarBear]

"A few" DPOYs? As in, four?

That plus a le and two trips to the Finals? This is a no-brainer.

Of course, I bet that will all change if Ben instigates another fight in Detroit.

[Obstructed_View]

That would be almost as pathetic as the Heat retiring the number of an opposing player. Ben deserves a big thank you from the city of detroit and a rousing ovation the first time he plays in Detroit, and that's about it.

[whottt]

Did he hit any playoff three-pointers?

Funny guy...careful though...you would not believe some of the sad comparisons that question can lead too.

[whottt]

Sorry but I still have to veto Ben's jersey hanging in Detroit...Pistons' fans don't know what's good for them right now because the wounds are still fresh.

SO what if Ben Wallace was underpaid earlier? It's not like Detroit screwed him on his last contract...and he went into obvious decline last year. He also turned cancerous at the end of the season...Detroit offered him a nice contract...and if he'd been about Detroit, and winning, he wouldn't have left.

But he did leave. Plain and simple, he left.

HOF'er? Without a doubt...

But deserving of hanging up there with Isiah, Dumars and Lambeir?

No, he isn't...he wasn't as much of a Piston as those guys were...and he proved it. The standard has been set and Ben doesn't measure up.



Additionally...Rasheed Wallace was just as essential to your le. Trust me...we played you guys in the final...Sheed was the scary one. IT wasn't like Wallace just stepped foot on the court all by his lonesome and turned you guys into le contenders.

It's a tough question and it won't be a travesty if you guys retire it...but the fact of the matter is, Wallace chose the $$$$ over being immortalized in MoTown. His choice. Make him live with it.

[ShoogarBear]

I knew you'd sniff that one out.

[Darrin]

I knew you'd sniff that one out.

3/20/01 vs. Utah
3/14/03 vs. WAS
12/23/03 vs. MIL
4/6/05 vs. WAS

Now, they are all "sniffed" out.

[ShoogarBear]

Damn, the Wiz's perimeter defense sucks!

[Please_dont_ban_me]

"A few" DPOYs? As in, four?

That plus a le and two trips to the Finals? This is a no-brainer.

Of course, I bet that will all change if Ben instigates another fight in Detroit.

Nash has 2 mvp's, and led his team deep in the playoffs.

But if he leaves after a year or two, you think his number would be retired by Phoenix? I seriously doubt it. You have to stay loyal to a franchise a little longer then Ben and Nash (so far) have been.

[ShoogarBear]

Here's something to do in your spare time: find out how many seasons Charles Barkley played with Phoenix Suns. While you're at it, how many years did Connie Hawkins or Paul Westphal play with them?

Then tell us what Phoenix did with their numbers.

Now admittedly Barkley and Westphal got their teams to at least one NBA Final, so maybe you have a point about Nash. But judging by the MVP awards, we must be living in the Age of Total Steve Nash Dominance of the NBA, which should count for something.

And oh, by the way, of all the people mentioned, only Ben Wallace has actually won an NBA le.

When Wallace's playing days are over, retiring his number should be a no-brainer.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Here's something to do in your spare time: find out how many seasons Charles Barkley played with Phoenix Suns. While you're at it, how many years did Connie Hawkins or Paul Westphal play with them?

Then tell us what Phoenix did with their numbers.

Now admittedly Barkley and Westphal got their teams to at least one NBA Final, so maybe you have a point about Nash. But judging by the MVP awards, we must be living in the Age of Total Steve Nash Dominance of the NBA, which should count for something.

And oh, by the way, of all the people mentioned, only Ben Wallace has actually won an NBA le.

When Wallace's playing days are over, retiring his number should be a no-brainer.

You're comparing Charles Barkley to Ben Wallace.

You figure Ben Wallace ends up in the hall of fame and one of the top 50 players of all time?

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Btw

Charles could hit a jumpshot as well as D up.

[ShoogarBear]

You're comparing Charles Barkley to Ben Wallace.

You figure Ben Wallace ends up in the hall of fame and one of the top 50 players of all time?

Man, you are so all over the place. Let's try to do this logically:

-You said Ben wouldn't get his number retired because he only played there a few years and won a "couple" of DPOYs.
-I point out that he actually won 4 (more than anyone else excep Dikembe) and got two trips to the Finals and one le.
-You somehow think that merits a comparison to Nash and if he'll get his number retired.
-WTF? Okay, I play along point out three players on the Suns got their numbers retired playing fewer years than Wallace, none of whom won les. Yes, Nash will get his reitred with the Suns.
-You: Barkley is a HoFer.
-Me: So what? Not a requirement to get your number retired. Westphal is not a HoF and only played ~5 years with the Suns. Ben Wallace may end up as a borderline HoFer with a ring and 4 DPOYers.

No matter what argument you try to make, Wallace has you beat. He has more years and more accomplishments than a lot of other players who have their numbers retired.

The only way Detroit doesn't retire it is out of spite, and I don't see that happening.

[ShoogarBear]

Oh, and if you think Barkley played D, you've lost all credibility.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Man, you are so all over the place. Let's try to do this logically:

-You said Ben wouldn't get his number retired because he only played there a few years and won a "couple" of DPOYs.
-I point out that he actually won 4 (more than anyone else excep Dikembe) and got two trips to the Finals and one le.
-You somehow think that merits a comparison to Nash and if he'll get his number retired.
-WTF? Okay, I play along point out three players on the Suns got their numbers retired playing fewer years than Wallace, none of whom won les. Yes, Nash will get his reitred with the Suns.
-You: Barkley is a HoFer.
-Me: So what? Not a requirement to get your number retired. Westphal is not a HoF and only played ~5 years with the Suns. Ben Wallace may end up as a borderline HoFer with a ring and 4 DPOYers.

No matter what argument you try to make, Wallace has you beat. He has more years and more accomplishments than a lot of other players who have their numbers retired.

The only way Detroit doesn't retire it is out of spite, and I don't see that happening.

You brought Barkley into the equation.

Yes he played less years than Wallace, but he's a hall of famer. That's my point. Wallace is not a hall of famer, his "credentials" consist of a ring and 4 DPOY awards.

...my point is, Nash has 2 MVP trophies, which would rival 4 DPOY trophies. He's been with the Suns about as long as Wallace has been with the Pistons. If he left after this year, with his 2 MVP trophies, and deep in the playoff appearances, do you retire Nash's jersey? No.

Do you retire Sean Elliots jersey? No.

Do you retire Horry's jersey in Houston? No.

Do you retire Rodman's jersey in Chicago? No.



You can make an argument for Billups or Hamilton meaning as much to that team if not more than Wallace. Sheed played a huge role as well. Ben Wallace was a fan favorite, one dimensional player. I wouldn't retire his jersey.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Oh, and...

Barkleys defense > Wallaces offense