Why Nobody Seems To Like Spurs Recent Moves???

[venitian navigator]

I agree that if you give more time to players (see Oberto at c/pf; Udrih back up pg) they can prove to be better...and that maybe some positions/players now, possibly, could are better "insurances" than before (bonner for Horry; voughn for the back up pg spot; E. Wiullimas, in case he effectively polays for us, for bowen).
The point is that, at the moment, is :

a) we have quite nothing really relieble at the center/pf position except td and :

1) is more than possible that elson and butler don't sign;
2) is alot more than possible that, also in nba unproven, Scola and Javtokas were a lot better than them and we know they already will not come for this season (at least);
3) for f.o. admission, rasho and nazr were better than them;
4) looking at the market, we could have no more options avalilable in case they both don't sign...(ex. Evans wants the mle and I don't think our f.o. is supposed to give that to him...while other teams are ready to do that)

b) we have nothing more in the back court that can compare with "fresh and speedy" legs that likely kiled us against the "small ball" dallas (the terry, harris, howard trio) and/or other teams that are gonna adopt the some strategy

c) we're effectively growing old...and our passed draft choices are not gonna contribute (at least for this year) and don't make see a lot of signs to be so good as we were hoping...


So, everything can happen, but at the moment I don't see a lot of lights shining in our way...

[Bruno]

Move don't take place in a vac . There is a cause and effect ..
The moves of Nazr and Rasho are good in a vac , but it leaves the team without a center.

So you are judging a team while the offseason isn't finished. You agreed that's it's too soon to judge and you do it, be a little logical.

His opening statment about two bodies on Shaq opened the roster question, in fact the Spurs only have Oberto at center right now ... they don't have two bodies.

I'm repeating myself but
Right now, Spurs don't play.

You have swamps down there? I didn't know that.

Ask Cuban.

I am here to post on topics ... both good and bad ... its what I do

First, this topic isn't bad. You haven't understand the difference between grading moves and grading an offseason.
Second, you can still post good things in a bad topic.

All this means nothing if everyone stays healthy, but with that many players 30+ years of age, what are the chanses that they will all stay healthy? When one goes down it puts pressure on the next ... and more minutes ... and more chance for injury.

30 years isn't old for a player. the only old player that play a lot is Bowen and as you said, he is "a marvel".
And I'm not sold on the fact that a 30 years old player is more injury prone than a 23 years old player. Just look at your team, Harris and Howard were more injured last year than Terry, Dirk or Dampier.

The team needs to get younger, they need to get more athletic, they need to get faster .... the moves (to this point) have done nothing about this (Butler will help, Elson is already 30)

Elson is more athletic and faster than Rasho/Nazr and 30 years old isn't old for a center.
Bonner and butler are quite young.
Vaughn is quite old but we don't need to be younger at the PG spot with Parker and Udrih.

have gutted the big men from the team with only Bonner to show.

Sure Rasho and Nazr were really helpful during playoffs.

[Dalhoop]

So you are judging a team while the offseason isn't finished. You agreed that's it's too soon to judge and you do it, be a little logical.

We both agree that it is too early to grade the off-season, but that is what the topic started wanted.

If you don't give the team an Incomplete ... which is an appropreate grade at this point ... then you have to give them a failing grade because of the effect of the moves on the team and needs that were not addressed ... and new needs that were created by the moves.

Now Nazr walking isn't really a move ... Its more of a wave ... The Spurs had no say.

Rasho was a trade .... they controlled that one. In that trade they gave away a center and got a PF ... Both back-ups though Rasho is more likely to start games next year.

Knowing what the Spurs did about Nazr and his play (and at ude) what would be more important? Getting a center back in the trade that may cover for a "acting out" Nazr, or getting a power forward to play 15 minutes behind Duncan?

That trade was not a good one because it didn't address the resulting need.

Vaughn's signing .... well, at least he is a warm body (I would rather give the minutes to Udrih and see if you can build his convidence). There are two schools of thought with back-ups. you can have "young and developing" or "old and steady". The team needs "young and developing"

Williams is in the same boat as Vaughn.

Is there no "combo guard" out there that the Spurs could get (Daniels comes to mind) and develop?

[Dalhoop]

Sure Rasho and Nazr were really helpful during playoffs.

I didn't watch the Kings series so I will have to take your word for that. i have already go into depths to try to explain why the Spurs centers had no playing time in the Mavs series ..... The coaches had no choice .... They were not quick enough to cover Howard or Stackhouse on defense ... they had to come out of the game.

It was that simple.

Now how many centers out there can cover a young athletic SF? Just because Nazr and Rasho couldn't do it doesn't mean that everyone else can. They were ineffective in that series .... in my opionion, not worth gutting the corp for

[strangeweather]

If you don't give the team an Incomplete ... which is an appropreate grade at this point ... then you have to give them a failing grade because of the effect of the moves on the team and needs that were not addressed ... and new needs that were created by the moves.

Of course they get an incomplete. They're not actually done yet. Even if they don't make another move, they still have two moves pending, and we're not sure what happens with either of them.

Rasho was a trade .... they controlled that one. In that trade they gave away a center and got a PF ... Both back-ups though Rasho is more likely to start games next year.

Knowing what the Spurs did about Nazr and his play (and at ude) what would be more important? Getting a center back in the trade that may cover for a "acting out" Nazr, or getting a power forward to play 15 minutes behind Duncan?

That trade was not a good one because it didn't address the resulting need.

Considering that they seem to be addressing their center position in other ways, I don't see anything wrong with what they got back for Rasho.

Also, if you saw Horry in the postseason, someone who can give us backup minutes at PF is also a need.

Vaughn's signing .... well, at least he is a warm body (I would rather give the minutes to Udrih and see if you can build his convidence). There are two schools of thought with back-ups. you can have "young and developing" or "old and steady". The team needs "young and developing"

The team has young and developing -- Beno. But Beno has played his way out of playoff minutes for two years in a row now, and we need a fallback option. A veteran defender who can handle pressure is a pretty good fallback.

Williams is in the same boat as Vaughn.

Williams is trade bait or cap relief.

Is there no "combo guard" out there that the Spurs could get (Daniels comes to mind) and develop?

We have a developing PG, and I expect the Spurs are working on getting a swingman. A guy who can play both swing spots is a much bigger priority than a combo guard.

[Bruno]

We both agree that it is too early to grade the off-season, but that is what the topic started wanted.

If you don't give the team an Incomplete ... which is an appropreate grade at this point ... then you have to give them a failing grade because of the effect of the moves on the team and needs that were not addressed ... and new needs that were created by the moves.

So you say that's it's too soon to judge and you want to give a grade for the offeason ?

For the 20th times, the topic starter grade trades and moves not the whole offseason.

Knowing what the Spurs did about Nazr and his play (and at ude) what would be more important? Getting a center back in the trade that may cover for a "acting out" Nazr, or getting a power forward to play 15 minutes behind Duncan?

So you want to trade a center for a center, I'm impressed.
Spurs have never planed to re-sign Nazr.
Maybe you haven't notice but Duncan is more a center than a PF.

That trade was not a good one because it didn't address the resulting need.

Never heard of Salary dump. This trade was very good for Spurs. There are the whole offseason to address Spurs' needs.

Vaughn's signing .... well, at least he is a warm body (I would rather give the minutes to Udrih and see if you can build his convidence). There are two schools of thought with back-ups. you can have "young and developing" or "old and steady". The team needs "young and developing"

Vaughn is the 3rd PG, Beno is the main backup.
When your starting PG is 24 years old and when your backup PG is 24 years old, you don't need a third young point guard. Booth are what you called "young and developing".
Spurs needed what you called an "old and steady" PG as insurance if Beno struggles.

[Bruno]

They were ineffective in that series .... in my opionion, not worth gutting the corp for

You don't spend $23M/3 years (Rasho) or $24m/4 years (Nazr) for an useless player against your main rival (and not that great against Phoenix too).
Playoffs are everything, regular season is just a preseason for teams like Spurs or mavs.

It is that simple.

[beirmeistr]

I realize that the summer is young, but, considering the tight budget that the Spurs run, I think they made good decisions pinning down Elson and Butler to offer sheets.
I think Elson will be a Spur, and, from what I read, the Knicks would be dumb to match the Spurs' offer for Butler because of luxury tax considerations. If, and I am using the word IF, the Spurs land both Elson and Butler, they will probably be an improvement over Rasho and Nazr. I just wonder if either one can put up some resistance against Shaq or Yao. Old Rasho did an adequate job huffing and puffing against the big centers. It's a shame that Javtokas didn't make it, but, like some others have poinyed out, it's a business and the Spurs made a business decision. I think Beno and Oberto deserve more time to prove themselves.
And I am still waiting for a juicy trade by the Spurs.

[Bruno]

strangeweather, are you in my mind ?

[strangeweather]

strangeweather, are you in my mind ?

GMTA, I guess.

[Dalhoop]

Considering that they seem to be addressing their center position in other ways, I don't see anything wrong with what they got back for Rasho.

As long as things in the future work out ... the grade was for the moves made to this point.

To this point they have addressed the back-up to TD and the third string PG while at the same time losing both centers and creating a void

The grade to this point is not a good one.

The team has young and developing -- Beno. But Beno has played his way out of playoff minutes for two years in a row now, and we need a fallback option. A veteran defender who can handle pressure is a pretty good fallback.

If he doesn't work out, then they need to get another developing PG. After two full seasons they should have a good idea of whether he is going to be the answer or not ... If not then trade him for another.

A guy who can play both swing spots is a much bigger priority than a combo guard.

They would both do the same thing, releave the pressure for the oldsters in those positions right now (I am talking about the back-ups)

So you say that's it's too soon to judge and you want to give a grade for the offeason ?

For the 20th times, the topic starter grade trades and moves not the whole offseason.

And for the 20th time that is what I am doing .. the grades suck and the off season is not done. they need to do better before the season starts ... as they are about out of money, it will have to be though trades .... I am not sure that Elson and Butler are going to help as much as Nazr and Rasho ... Butler is Raw and Elson is a euro-center (not known for defense)

You don't spend $23M/3 years (Rasho) or $24m/4 years (Nazr) for an useless player against your main rival (and not that great against Phoenix too).

Alright 13.6M is a little steep to pay, but we have the same problem when playing the Suns .. Diop and Dampier can't get on the floor (no one to guard). But just because they have noone to play vs the Suns doesn't mean that they were usless vs the Spurs, Grizzlies and Heat.

Its about ALL the play-offs, not just one opponent.

[strangeweather]

As long as things in the future work out ... the grade was for the moves made to this point.

To this point they have addressed the back-up to TD and the third string PG while at the same time losing both centers and creating a void

The grade to this point is not a good one.

Hence the repeated discussion about why it's awfully silly to give them an offseason grade other than incomplete at this point.

If he doesn't work out, then they need to get another developing PG. After two full seasons they should have a good idea of whether he is going to be the answer or not ... If not then trade him for another.

I expect this year is the key. If he finally puts it together, we have our backup. If not, he's unlikely to stick around. Either way, it makes more sense to address the position after this year, not right now. Hence Vaughn.

They would both do the same thing, releave the pressure for the oldsters in those positions right now (I am talking about the back-ups)

We're old in the swing positions. We're downright young at point. We're also undersized at SF. Adding a combo guard without the size to be a legit SF would be completely the wrong move.

I am not sure that Elson and Butler are going to help as much as Nazr and Rasho ... Butler is Raw and Elson is a euro-center (not known for defense)

Elson has plenty of deficiencies, but defense is probably the least of them.

Alright 13.6M is a little steep to pay, but we have the same problem when playing the Suns .. Diop and Dampier can't get on the floor (no one to guard). But just because they have noone to play vs the Suns doesn't mean that they were usless vs the Spurs, Grizzlies and Heat.

Its about ALL the play-offs, not just one opponent.

Yes, but Rasho and Nazr weren't very effective vs. Sacto, either.

Your needs are different then ours. If we end up somehow trading for a starting PF, we will start the best center in pro basketball in Duncan. By contrast, Dirk needs a big guy next to him to provide the toughness inside. That makes Rasho and Nazr a lot less crucial to us than Damp and Diop are to you guys.

[Bruno]

GMTA, I guess.

It should be that