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  1. #26
    Senior Member ShackO's Avatar
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    If there is a kidnapper or some other criminal with a human shield is it acceptable in the “civilized” western ethos to merely kill the hostage if it means killing the victimizer..

  2. #27
    Believe.
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    Education is the key to knowledge. It can help you to discern the difference between fact and fiction, and can also save you from becoming a victim of propaganda.

    Now go forth and spread knowledge, not hate.

  3. #28
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    If there is a kidnapper or some other criminal with a human shield is it acceptable in the “civilized” western ethos to merely kill the hostage if it means killing the victimizer..
    If the criminal is holding the firing mechanism of a Katyusha rocket aimed at a populated city, yes.

  4. #29
    Senior Member ShackO's Avatar
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    Maybe you should read sources other than those that have already convicted Israel of a massacre.
    From Haaretz

    I think that leaves it open for debate.
    Wow another unbiased site............ What a joke..........

  5. #30
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
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    If there is a kidnapper or some other criminal with a human shield is it acceptable in the “civilized” western ethos to merely kill the hostage if it means killing the victimizer..
    Poor analogy. The only person the victimizer could kill (besides himself) in your scenario is the hostage, so there is no gain in killing the hostage just to kill the victimizer.

    Think harder, maybe a case with multiple hostages, and perhaps you can emerge with a better analogy.

  6. #31
    Believe.
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    If the criminal is holding the firing mechanism of a Katyusha rocket aimed at a populated city, yes.
    The US and Israel had better target Russia and China then.

  7. #32
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    Wow another unbiased site............ What a joke..........
    Did you read the article? They don't make a judgement on when the building collapsed or what caused it. They state a couple of viewpoints, including those of witnesses.

    Who are you getting your information from, Nasrallah? , you're already condemning it as a war crime.

  8. #33
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
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    Did you read the article? They don't make a judgement on when the building collapsed or what caused it. They state a couple of viewpoints, including those of witnesses.

    Who are you getting your information from, Nasrallah? , you're already condemning it as a war crime.
    Yoni, Ha'aretz is published by those perfidious Jews. You can't trust them.

  9. #34
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    Poor analogy. The only person the victimizer could kill (besides himself) in your scenario is the hostage, so there is no gain in killing the hostage just to kill the victimizer.

    Think harder, maybe a case with multiple hostages, and perhaps you can emerge with a better analogy.
    Regardless of the situation, YOU would kill everyone.

  10. #35
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    Regardless of the situation, YOU would kill everyone.
    If more lives were saved in the process? Yep.

  11. #36
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
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    Regardless of the situation, YOU would kill everyone.
    If there were multiple hostages, the kidnapper had already killed at least one, and had promised to kill more on the hour, then yes, I would take the shot to kill him even if it risked the hostage if that's what it took to save multiple other lives.

    Because in real life, sometimes there are no scenarios where all innocents can be spared.

  12. #37
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    There it is.

  13. #38
    Senior Member ShackO's Avatar
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    Did you read the article? They don't make a judgement on when the building collapsed or what caused it. They state a couple of viewpoints, including those of witnesses.

    Who are you getting your information from, Nasrallah? , you're already condemning it as a war crime.
    lol.............. I have already stated my opinion. twice.... Just chill till they have something to go on......... Right now why speculate.......??

  14. #39
    Senior Member ShackO's Avatar
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    Yoni, aljazeerah is published by those perfidious Arabs. You can't trust them.

  15. #40
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
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    Ha'aretz is the peacenik paper. The Jerusalem Post is the Israeli Al-Jazeera.

  16. #41
    Senior Member ShackO's Avatar
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    When possible I prefer to have my information from sources that have no appearances of bias or stake in the issue……. IMO that paper would not be my choice as an authority on the issue…. As I have repeated numerous times already we should all reserve judgment on the building until we find out what happened, until then it is merely speculation……..

  17. #42
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Is this the proof? Where is a rocket being fired? I see a possible staging area for soldiers; unlike the same staging area US troops use in Iraq and Israeli troops use in Israel, where there is urban warfare. All battles won't take place in a pristene field. Any picture could be misinterpreted or at the very least misrepresented.
    How do you misrepresent a bunch of guys in civies manning an anti-aircraft gun?

    I think this is a rare instance where the libs and cons here are all in agreement on something:

    Hezbullah deserves to get the snot pounded out of it.

  18. #43
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
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    How do you misrepresent a bunch of guys in civies manning an anti-aircraft gun?

    I think this is a rare instance where the libs and cons here are all in agreement on something:

    Hezbullah deserves to get the snot pounded out of it.
    Only Mel Gibson and Robert Fisk disagree.

  19. #44
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Only Mel Gibson and Robert Fisk disagree.
    Mel Gibson is not exactly what I would call a rational person. If memory serves, he has said some, um, weird things on occassion. I think he and Tom Cruise share the same clubhouse.

  20. #45
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    When possible I prefer to have my information from sources that have no appearances of bias or stake in the issue……. IMO that paper would not be my choice as an authority on the issue…. As I have repeated numerous times already we should all reserve judgment on the building until we find out what happened, until then it is merely speculation……..

    Be that as it may, unless one happens to have first hand knowledge, one is forced to make value judgements based on subjective assessments.

    One does not always have perfect information, and occasionally has to act on incomplete or ambiguous information.

    I find it unsurprising that Hezbullah would use civilians as cover. I find it also unsurprising that any bombing campaign would/could be made without error.

    The Israelis, from the objective reports that I have seen, have been going out of their way to limit "collateral" damage, and indeed have good reason and motivation to do so.

    Hezbullah, on the other hand, has every motivation to hide among civilians, so as to create as many bad news reports as possible. Objective reports that I have seen have substantiated this occurring.

    Motivation does not equal action, but in this case when motive is backed up by some objective indicators it is not a hard call to say that in any particular instance what probably happened.

    In this case, it was likely that Hezbullah was either negligent in selecting a launch site or actively and cynically using civilians as cover.

    Either way the moral responsiblity lies with Hezbullah.

    Simple ethics, or in this case, lack of them.

  21. #46
    Senior Member ShackO's Avatar
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    Be that as it may, unless one happens to have first hand knowledge, one is forced to make value judgements based on subjective assessments.
    One does not always have perfect information, and occasionally has to act on incomplete or ambiguous information.

    I find it unsurprising that Hezbullah would use civilians as cover. I find it also unsurprising that any bombing campaign would/could be made without error.



    The Israelis, from the objective reports that I have seen, have been going out of their way to limit "collateral" damage, and indeed have good reason and motivation to do so.

    Hezbullah, on the other hand, has every motivation to hide among civilians, so as to create as many bad news reports as possible. Objective reports that I have seen have substantiated this occurring.

    Motivation does not equal action, but in this case when motive is backed up by some objective indicators it is not a hard call to say that in any particular instance what probably happened.

    In this case, it was likely that Hezbullah was either negligent in selecting a launch site or actively and cynically using civilians as cover.

    Either way the moral responsiblity lies with Hezbullah.

    Simple ethics, or in this case, lack of them.
    lol... You can only do the best you can with what you have to work with........


    Well now I wouldn’t be expecting them to be standing out in an open field inviting a bomb…. Would you??? I would not say they intentionally and cowardly put women and children in the way…… But even an idiot can see they are indifferent to the carnage that results from their actions….

    I guess it goes with the territory… If you are firing rockets indiscriminately in the air oblivious if it is hitting Arabs, women or children then you are probably not all that concerned about putting “your neighbors family” in danger…..

    You can lay all the blame were ever you want………. Your view is hardly universal…



  22. #47
    Believe. gtownspur's Avatar
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    You get dumber with every post.

  23. #48
    Senior Member ShackO's Avatar
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    I guess if you can't refute it you call names..... seems to always be the case...

  24. #49
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    You can lay all the blame were ever you want………. Your view is hardly universal…


    Hmm, your post was not exactly clear as to its meaning/intention, and could use some clarification.

    I was simply trying to ethically reason out fault based on what is known.

  25. #50
    Believe. gtownspur's Avatar
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    I guess if you can't refute it you call names..... seems to always be the case...

    What is there to refute, all you did was put forth an oppinion. There wasn't even facts accompanied with that oppinion.

    Heres a fact,

    Israel warned the Lebaneses citizens to evacuate so that there wouldnt be such catastrophic deaths. Israel put forth the intention that it wanted to minimalize the death toll, Hezbollah didnt. And even more, Hezbollah still decides to fight from civilian quarters in order to draw more innocent Lebanese lives, but you still insist that both sides are at equal blame.

    Pull your pious head out of your ass. The reason you are getting dumber with each post is because you post the same bull even after most everyone on here has presented the evidence in light of israels reason for civilian casualties.

    To keep on going on about israel's supposed butchering civilians and equating it to hezbollah is idiotic at best.

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