The "Hiding Among Civilians" Myth

[Nbadan]

The "hiding among civilians" myth

Israel claims it's justified in bombing civilians because Hezbollah mingles with them. In fact, the militant group doesn't trust its civilians and stays as far away from them as possible.
By Mitch Prothero

Jul. 28, 2006

| The bombs came just as night fell, around 7 p.m. The locals knew that the 10-story apartment building had been the office, and possibly the residence, of Sheik Tawouk, the Hezbollah commander for the south, so they had moved their families out at the start of the war. The landlord had refused to rent to Hezbollah when they requested the top floors of the building. No matter, the locals said, the Hezb guys just moved in anyway in the name of the "resistance."

Everyone knew that the building would be hit eventually.

~snip~

Throughout this now 16-day-old war, Israeli planes high above civilian areas make decisions on what to bomb. They send huge bombs capable of killing things for hundreds of meters around their targets, and then blame the inevitable civilian deaths -- the Lebanese government says 600 civilians have been killed so far -- on "terrorists" who callously use the civilian infrastructure for protection.

But this claim is almost always false. My own reporting and that of other journalists reveals that in fact Hezbollah fighters -- as opposed to the much more numerous Hezbollah political members, and the vastly more numerous Hezbollah sympathizers -- avoid civilians. Much smarter and better trained than the PLO and Hamas fighters, they know that if they mingle with civilians, they will sooner or later be betrayed by collaborators -- as so many Palestinian militants have been.

~snip~

In the south, where Shiites dominate, just about everyone supports Hezbollah. Does mere support for Hezbollah, or even participation in Hezbollah activities, mean your house and family are fair game? Do you need to fire rockets from your front yard? Or is it enough to be a political activist?

The Israelis are consistent: They bomb everyone and everything remotely associated with Hezbollah, including noncombatants. In effect, that means punishing Lebanon. The nation is 40 percent Shiite, and of that 40 percent, tens of thousands are employed by Hezbollah's social services, political operations, schools, and other nonmilitary functions. The "terrorist" organization Hezbollah is Lebanon's second-biggest employer.

~snip~

Salon

Except for Salon, I don't think there is any doubt that Hezbollah hides among civilians and uses them as shields, it's not a myth but an unfortunate characterization of those who are militarily overpowered and fighting a guerilla war. This is exactly why wars of this nature have historically been hard to win, especially when the sympathetic locals being bombed by Israel see Hezbollah as the good guys.

[boutons_]

These Hezbollah "good guys" have armed themselves to the teeth, hidden their rockets in urban areas, constructed bunkers (hard to hide such construction?), and send their shrapnel-loaded rockets into Israeli civilian populations.

The Lebanese need to learn the lesson that if they let militants setup shop in S. Lebanon and they attack Israel, the militants are inviting the carnage visitied on Lebanon now. The Lebanese need to be unsympathetic to the Hezbollah and more sympathetic to their own country. Hard to do when occupied by Syria. But Syria is gone, and if Hezbollah is weakened and disarmed, it will be easier for Lebanon to run its own country.

I'm sure the Israelis were well aware, via their own spies and Lebanese collabos, how well armed the Hezbollah were. The Israelis wouldn't have responded so massively against only a couple of guys with a few rockets.

[Yonivore]

[B]The "hiding among civilians" myth

Israel claims it's justified in bombing civilians because Hezbollah mingles with them. In fact, the militant group doesn't trust its civilians and stays as far away from them as possible.
By Mitch Prothero



Salon

Except for Salon, I don't think there is any doubt that Hezbollah hides among civilians and uses them as shields, it's not a myth but an unfortunate characterization of those who are militarily overpowered and fighting a guerilla war. This is exactly why wars of this nature have historically been hard to win, especially when the sympathetic locals being bombed by Israel see Hezbollah as the good guys.

Okay, call me confused. You start your post calling it a myth and then append the bottom with a notation that acknowledges that everyone (except Salon) know Hezbollah uses Lebanese as human shields.

which is it Nbadan?

[ShackO]

These Hezbollah "good guys" have armed themselves to the teeth, hidden their rockets in urban areas, constructed bunkers (hard to hide such construction?), and send their shrapnel-loaded rockets into Israeli civilian populations.

The Lebanese need to learn the lesson that if they let militants setup shop in S. Lebanon and they attack Israel, (This assumes they could have done something about it... THe fact that they could not is a given) the militants are inviting the carnage visitied on Lebanon now. The Lebanese need to be unsympathetic to the Hezbollah and more sympathetic to their own country. Hard to do when occupied by Syria. But Syria is gone, and if Hezbollah is weakened and disarmed, it will be easier for Lebanon to run its own country. (After killing innocent solders and hundreds of civilians I guess they will really want to look out for the interests of those that kill their women and children)

I'm sure the Israelis were well aware, via their own spies and Lebanese collabos, how well armed the Hezbollah were. The Israelis wouldn't have responded so massively against only a couple of guys with a few rockets.

Who is saying that pissballah are good guys??? In the real world it is not about the “good buys vs the bad guys”…. Sooner ppl realize this they can begin to see how the world “really works”………

[Yonivore]

The Fourth Geneva Convention, Article 28

"The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations."

International Law Expert Yoram Dinstein

"Should civilian casualties ensue from an attempt to shield combatants or a military objective, the ultimate responsibility lies with the belligerent placing innocent civilians at risk."

Provided for those, in this forum, that like to sqawk about Geneva Conventions and International Law.

I'd still like to know how MannyIsGod would have responded on July 12th if he were the Prime Minister of Israel.

Why isn't the international community screaming about Hezbollah massacring these people? According to International Law and the Geneva Conventions, they're responsible for the deaths.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

quoting salon as a newsource.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

BTW, *busted*

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sto...007220,00.html

[Nbadan]

Okay, call me confused. You start your post calling it a myth and then append the bottom with a notation that acknowledges that everyone (except Salon) know Hezbollah uses Lebanese as human shields.

which is it Nbadan?

That was the original le of the Salon article.

[Doc Jerome]

BTW, *busted*

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sto...007220,00.html

Is this the proof? Where is a rocket being fired? I see a possible staging area for soldiers; unlike the same staging area US troops use in Iraq and Israeli troops use in Israel, where there is urban warfare. All battles won't take place in a pristene field. Any picture could be misinterpreted or at the very least misrepresented.

[ShackO]

The Fourth Geneva Convention, Article 28



International Law Expert Yoram Dinstein


Provided for those, in this forum, that like to sqawk about Geneva Conventions and International Law.

I'd still like to know how MannyIsGod would have responded on July 12th if he were the Prime Minister of Israel.

Why isn't the international community screaming about Hezbollah massacring these people? According to International Law and the Geneva Conventions, they're responsible for the deaths.

I guess it is a matter of degree and the numbers….. If you do a body count of the innocent ppl killed it is a bit shocking….

Again, if you value life, and the value of those Israeli’s are just as valuable as those Lebanese children then you can understand how others see it differently then most of the spoon feed sheep here in the USA……..

If you or I agree or not, the vast majority of the ppl and governments of the world believe that the brutal bombing of innocent civilians is wrong and way out of proportion…

Perhaps the Israeli PM has proven his manhood to the homeboys but he also brought about the Shia and Sunni @ least giving lip service to cooperation and reconciliation as well as elevating the status of pissbolah in the eyes of Arabs and many Muslims throughout the world…

Not sure that is going to help Israel………………

[boutons_]

"the brutal bombing of innocent civilians is wrong"

The Israelis weren't AIMING for civilians.

Hezbollah AIMS their shrapnel-filled rockets at civilians.

[ShackO]

"the brutal bombing of innocent civilians is wrong"

The Israelis weren't AIMING for civilians.

Hezbollah AIMS their shrapnel-filled rockets at civilians.

How do you know what they were aiming @???

Pissballah has crude weapons they have fired indiscriminately @ the city… Israel on the other hand has the best USA precision-guided munitions, complete control of the air and sea and yet has killed 10 times more civilians casualties then “the terrorist”… WTF???

[Obstructed_View]

How do you know what they were aiming @???

Pissballah has crude weapons they have fired indiscriminately @ the city… Israel on the other hand has the best USA precision-guided munitions, complete control of the air and sea and yet has killed 10 times more civilians casualties then “the terrorist”… WTF???

Israel has evacuated their cities and puts citizens in underground bomb shelters. Lebanese citizens, for whatever reason you choose to believe, are packed into a five story building at the highest point in town. It doesn't change the fact that Israel intends to kill only the muslims that have guns and rockets, and Hezbollah only intends to kill the Jews that have a pulse.

[MannyIsGod]

Has Isreal realeased the attack footage from the bombing of the building full of civilians? If there was a rocket laucher next to it, it seems the gun camera footage would show it. Why did they show every attack but that one? It is just weird.

[MannyIsGod]

Israel has evacuated their cities and puts citizens in underground bomb shelters. Lebanese citizens, for whatever reason you choose to believe, are packed into a five story building at the highest point in town. It doesn't change the fact that Israel intends to kill only the muslims that have guns and rockets, and Hezbollah only intends to kill the Jews that have a pulse.

Which side has killed a larger ratio of civilians?

[ShackO]

Israel has evacuated their cities and puts citizens in underground bomb shelters. Lebanese citizens, for whatever reason you choose to believe, are packed into a five story building at the highest point in town. It doesn't change the fact that Israel intends to kill only the muslims that have guns and rockets, and Hezbollah only intends to kill the Jews that have a pulse.

Intentions??? As I asked "how do you know their intentions"???

I don't GAF about their intentions or yours...... I only need to see the fact of what they have done.......... Actions speak louder that words and "you will kow them by their actions and the deeds they perform".........

I guess you can sell that to the innocent children parents and UN ppl's family...

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

"the brutal bombing of innocent civilians is wrong"

The Israelis weren't AIMING for civilians.

Hezbollah AIMS their shrapnel-filled rockets at civilians.

For once, I'm agreeing with boutons

[ShackO]

Israel has evacuated their cities and puts citizens in underground bomb shelters. Lebanese citizens, for whatever reason you choose to believe, are packed into a five story building at the highest point in town. It doesn't change the fact that Israel intends to kill only the muslims that have guns and rockets, and Hezbollah only intends to kill the Jews that have a pulse.

They say the path to is paved with “good intentions”….

I guess there might be some truth to that….. Certainly the road to sorrow and death appear to be……….

Perhaps with your simplistic cliché you can just dismiss the 750 Lebanese civilian deaths as bi-products of those “good intentions”…

[Yonivore]

Is this the proof? Where is a rocket being fired? I see a possible staging area for soldiers; unlike the same staging area US troops use in Iraq and Israeli troops use in Israel, where there is urban warfare. All battles won't take place in a pristene field. Any picture could be misinterpreted or at the very least misrepresented.

IAF footage of rockets being fired from a building similar to the one that collapsed in what is believed to be Qana.

Footage of rockets being fired from within Qana and Hezbollah using human shields.

[Doc Jerome]

The footage shows rockets being firied from behind a building; and the distance of the launch from the building is definately in question from the the angle of the video. Not on the rooftop of the building or from within the building like many of you keep spouting.

They blew up the whole building killing all of those innocents based on that? Where is the Hezbollah bodies or any other evidence of Helbollah presence in the ruins of the building?

The link heading is misleading in that it states to have the proof of HEZBOLLAH USING human shields. There is no such evidence on either video.

If this is the so called proof you all are using to justify the deaths of innocents, . . . well, it's ed up. I can't even speak on how ed up it is. I just know that it is, and cold and inhumane.

Now go practice some real intillegint behavior and recognize that this is a struggle by poor people trying to establish a foothold in the say of their own socioeconomic and political destiny vs. a superpower bully and its cronies that does not want to relinquish its strangle hold nor any of its power to whom it considers insignificants.

[Yonivore]

The footage shows rockets being firied from behind a building; and the distance of the launch from the building is definately in question from the the angle of the video. Not on the rooftop of the building or from within the building like many of you keep spouting.

They blew up the whole building killing all of those innocents based on that? Where is the Hezbollah bodies or any other evidence of Helbollah presence in the ruins of the building?

The link heading is misleading in that it states to have the proof of HEZBOLLAH USING human shields. There is no such evidence on either video.

If this is the so called proof you all are using to justify the deaths of innocents, . . . well, it's ed up. I can't even speak on how ed up it is. I just know that it is, and cold and inhumane.

Now go practice some real intillegint behavior and recognize that this is a struggle by poor people trying to establish a foothold in the say of their own socioeconomic and political destiny vs. a superpower bully and its cronies that does not want to relinquish its strangle hold nor any of its power to whom it considers insignificants.

Well, they bombed the building based on the belief it was an ordnance depot for the launchers being used just outside. And, the secondary blast that occurred some time after the air raid, about the time the building collapsed, would tend to confirm that.

I think it is premature to even assume the air strike is what caused the building to collapse.

[ShackO]

The footage shows rockets being firied from behind a building; and the distance of the launch from the building is definately in question from the the angle of the video. Not on the rooftop of the building or from within the building like many of you keep spouting.

They blew up the whole building killing all of those innocents based on that? Where is the Hezbollah bodies or any other evidence of Helbollah presence in the ruins of the building?

The link heading is misleading in that it states to have the proof of HEZBOLLAH USING human shields. There is no such evidence on either video.

If this is the so called proof you all are using to justify the deaths of innocents, . . . well, it's ed up. I can't even speak on how ed up it is. I just know that it is, and cold and inhumane.

Now go practice some real intillegint behavior and recognize that this is a struggle by poor people trying to establish a foothold in the say of their own socioeconomic and political destiny vs. a superpower bully and its cronies that does not want to relinquish its strangle hold nor any of its power to whom it considers insignificants.

Well said…. You notice with each and every death they look for justification and excuses to blame the victims……

The Lebanese government is calling for outside investigations and Israel is reviewing the situation and as of yet I have not seen any proof one way or the other…..

Not that it matters, as IMO some fool behind the building with a missile does not justify the 52 dead no more then it does the other 700 innocent civilians killed thus far by Israel... Or the fifty killed by pissbolah

[Yonivore]

Well said…. You notice with each and every death they look for justification and excuses to blame the victims……

Who's blaming the victims? I blame Hezbollah.

The Lebanese government is calling for outside investigations and Israel is reviewing the situation and as of yet I have not seen any proof one way or the other…..

Not that it matters, as IMO some fool behind the building with a missile does not justify the 52 dead no more then it does the other 700 innocent civilians killed thus far by Israel... Or the fifty killed by pissbolah

So, they should just be allowed to launch rockets into Israel with impugnity because they've not the decency to wage war away from civilians? Got it.

[Doc Jerome]

Well, they bombed the building based on the belief it was an ordnance depot for the launchers being used just outside. And, the secondary blast that occurred some time after the air raid, about the time the building collapsed, would tend to confirm that.

I think it is premature to even assume the air strike is what caused the building to collapse.

WTF. There was no secondary explosion. Where did you get that? Not once did I hear or read this 'til now. Come on now????

Lets get it right, babe.

[Yonivore]

WTF. There was no secondary explosion. Where did you get that? Not once did I hear or read this 'til now. Come on now????

Lets get it right, babe.

Maybe you should read sources other than those that have already convicted Israel of a massacre.
From Haaretz

The Israel Defense Forces convened a press conference Sunday evening, admitting that while the IAF did indeed strike the building in which the civilians were killed, the attack itself occurred near midnight, while reports of an explosion and the structure's collapse were only received at around 8:30 A.M.

The air force did resume bombing Qana at 7:30 A.M., however the strikes were carried out on targets at a distance of 460 meters from the building.

"The question we don't have an answer to is what happened between 12 midnight and 8 in the morning," said IAF Brigadier General Amir Eshel.

Lebanese villagers in Qana who were witness to the bombing, however, say that the building's collapse occurred in the wee hours of the night.

Witnesses at the scene corroborated the IDF claim that the strike on the building, which is located in the Hariva neighborhood of Qana, was carried out at 1:00 A.M. After the initial strike, some of the building's residents exited in an attempt to survey the damage, in effect saving themselves.

A few minutes later, IAF planes struck the building once again, causing the walls to collapse on the residents who did not vacate, killing them in the process.

Arab media began reporting on the incident after dawn Sunday, approximately seven hours after the strike. The reports did not note, however, that the building collapsed a short time prior to Arab journalists' arrival on the scene.

I think that leaves it open for debate.