Elson HAS to start

[timvp]

I like Elson a lot more than I thought I would but right now he's probably the most overhyped player on the Spurs. Yeah he's a whole of a lot better than he was on Denver but let's not put expectation through the roof just yet.

He has the worst +/- on the team. Per 48 minutes with Elson off the court, teams average 95.5 points against the Spurs. Per 48 minutes with Elson on the court, teams average 102 points. By just watching games, you can tell he still needs to get a lot better defensively.

That said, he's better than I thought he was and he's going to help the Spurs. But to act as if he's a David Robinson clone or whatever at this point is crazy.

[Tom_Foolery]

Bold Prediction: all of us(Kori included) will say Elson has improved dramatically enough to show Elson being a better Center.

Kori's argument(for now) has been that Oberto sets better picks and has better defensive rotation. While that maybe true, let's not forget this is Oberto's 2nd year on the Spurs while this being Elson's 1st. I should hope that Oberto is the clear choice for being the "starter", but I think Kori can also agree that Elson's potential and progress warrants such a debate. We may not agree on who starts or who is better(I still think Elson is better and should continue coming off the bench for the record), but if Oberto was that much better than Elson, then nobody would have a doubt who should start or who is better. It's Elson's potential and progress that has people thinking "possibilities".

Elson may not know the defensive scheme as good as 2nd year Oberto(nor should he), but I've liked his potential and progress thus far.

Pop seems to like Elson...Elson is averaging more minutes on the floor. One has to wonder if Pop is really trying to work Elson into the team extremely quick and maybe because Pop may like Elson a little better. There's got to be a reason why Elson's playing more minutes than Oberto when Oberto is the starter.

[timvp]

There's got to be a reason why Elson's playing more minutes than Oberto when Oberto is the starter.

Main reason why Oberto hasn't played more is foul trouble. He averages 8.5 fouls per 48 minutes

That is something he needs to work on as the season goes along. He picks up too many unnecessary fouls. But I expect Oberto and Elson to play around the same minutes per game. Pop will ride the player who is playing better and that should even out to around the same unless on player's production really falls off.

[Tom_Foolery]

Main reason why Oberto hasn't played more is foul trouble. He averages 8.5 fouls per 48 minutes

That is something he needs to work on as the season goes along. He picks up too many unnecessary fouls. But I expect Oberto and Elson to play around the same minutes per game. Pop will ride the player who is playing better and that should even out to around the same unless on player's production really falls off.

Well, if Oberto really is averaging more fouls per game/minutes than Elson, then maybe Oberto's defense isn't really that much better than Elson's? Kori, what do you make of the fact that Oberto averages more fouls than Elson? Is Oberto really that much better defensively and on rotation? One thing Oberto is not better than Elson at is recovery time and getting back to his man. Elson is incredibly quick at recovering to his guy.

[ChumpDumper]

Well, if Oberto really is averaging more fouls per game/minutes than Elson, then maybe Oberto's defense isn't really that much better than Elson's?

Nah, it is better. Elson's 7.34 fouls per 48 isn't exactly stellar.

what do you make of the fact that Oberto averages more fouls than Elson?

He's slow and short and tries to make defensive plays every time.

Is Oberto really that much better defensively and on rotation?

In the Spurs' system? Absolutely. Just watch the games.

One thing Oberto is not better than Elson at is recovery time and getting back to his man. Elson is incredibly quick at recovering to his guy.

That's great, since he is out of position so often.

I'm not bashing the guy. He's off to a good start, but he's got a long way to go.

[velik_m]

Unless Oberto plays himself out of starting position, Elson has no chance of starting.

[boutons_]

"he's got a long way to go."

Fab starts but only plays 19 MPG, one and a half quarters, less than FE, so in FO's case, starting is more of an honorary postion rather than winning a lot of playing time.

The other 4 starters all play 30+ MPG.

[ChumpDumper]

Sure Oberto needs to foul less.

so in FO's case, starting is more of an honorary postion rather than winning a lot of playing time.

He knows the system better and plays accordingly. That's why Rasho got starts in the past. If Elson did something like Nazr did and outrebounded Oberto by a wide margin every time he was out there, there might be a switch -- but currently Oberto is just as productive on the boards and pretty aggressive offensively. The things he does do better -- setting picks and defensive positioning are the real priorities in the Spurs system and often overlooked by folks who just see running and dunking as the end-all be-all of basketbal existence. If Elson can get to Oberto's level in those things Spur centers are actually counted upon to do, we can revisit this debate.

[T Park]

Who cares who starts.

Oberto has done nothing to lose it, FE hasn't done enough to capture it.

Plus FE's ahleticism and energy off the bench is Malik Rose like.

Keep it the way things are.

[Tom_Foolery]

Sure Oberto needs to foul less.He knows the system better and plays accordingly. That's why Rasho got starts in the past. If Elson did something like Nazr did and outrebounded Oberto by a wide margin every time he was out there, there might be a switch -- but currently Oberto is just as productive on the boards and pretty aggressive offensively. The things he does do better -- setting picks and defensive positioning are the real priorities in the Spurs system and often overlooked by folks who just see running and dunking as the end-all be-all of basketbal existence. If Elson can get to Oberto's level in those things Spur centers are actually counted upon to do, we can revisit this debate.

Really? Because I remember Nazr starting ahead of Rasho during the playoffs a couple years ago because Nazr was actually better during that time. I also remember him losing his starting spot and not ever being able to regain it because of poor play, and not because "Rasho knows the system better". By your logic, did that mean Barry & Turkoglu "knew the system better and that's why Manu was coming off the bench"?

Also, why is Elson averaging more minutes on the floor? By your logic, Popovich is purposely putting someone on the floor who is "nowhere near Oberto's ability to even consider starting" as a debate. Is Popovich purposely sabataging the Spurs by purposely playing someone "inferior" longer than the starter?

It sounds as if you really don't even want to give Elson a chance.

I'm not saying Elson should be starting(nor have I ever), but you are starting to sound discriminatory.

I'm not calling you a racist or prejudice, but it does sound like you go out of your way to "knock" Elson without real reason. Being able to recover is why Tim Duncan is an excellent defender, it's not because "Tim is always out of position and sucks on defense". My point was that Elson is much more athletic than Oberto and that's why he's able to recover better.

Oberto's higher foul percentage could be attributed to also being out of position as well as not being able to recover back to his guy and defend.

We are starting to see people here who either see reason for debate because they are close or people who refuse to even consider a debate.

Again, not calling you racist or prejudice, but you are starting to look like you're purposely going out of your way to put Elson down.

[Dre_7]

Who cares who starts.

Oberto has done nothing to lose it, FE hasn't done enough to capture it.

Plus FE's ahleticism and energy off the bench is Malik Rose like.

Keep it the way things are.

Most def. I like Elson off the bench.

Would it be wrong if I said Barry also should start in Manu's place???

[Tom_Foolery]

Who cares who starts.

Oberto has done nothing to lose it, FE hasn't done enough to capture it.

Plus FE's ahleticism and energy off the bench is Malik Rose like.

Keep it the way things are.

Well, Elson is averaging more minutes. that could be a sign of things to come in the future.

I wouldn't say Oberto has played so stellar that there is no debate. I also agree that Oberto should start, but because he wouldn't be as productive coming off the bench as he would starting and also because Elson is very productive coming off the bench and what's working should be kept that way.

If Oberto really was so much better than Elson, then there really would be no debate. And if there really was no debate, then you wouldn't have a good amount of people on the board with an argument suggesting Elson could start.

[Kori Ellis]

I'm not calling you a racist or prejudice, but it does sound like you go out of your way to "knock" Elson without real reason. Being able to recover is why Tim Duncan is an excellent defender, it's not because "Tim is always out of position and sucks on defense". My point was that Elson is much more athletic than Oberto and that's why he's able to recover better.

Oberto's higher foul percentage could be attributed to also being out of position as well as not being able to recover back to his guy and defend.

We are starting to see people here who either see reason for debate because they are close or people who refuse to even consider a debate.

Again, not calling you racist or prejudice, but you are starting to look like you're purposely going out of your way to put Elson down.

Why do you keep bring up race?

ChumpDumper has given you a lot of real reasons for his arguments.

[Kori Ellis]

Also you keep saying Elson is averaging more minutes and you say it like there's a dramatic difference. Elson averages 19.6 minutes and Oberto 19.0. Virtually no difference.

They both have faults that will stop them from being 30mpg centers. Together, they put up decent numbers. If Elson rotates on defense and sets screens, he will likely get even more minutes than Oberto because he can play against the quick, athletic teams and he's not short. But right now, Elson gets pulled out of games and pulled aside by teammates quite regularly because of missing rotations.

[whottt]

I think another factor will be which one plays better alongside Duncan...that hurt Rasho more than anything IMO...he was less productive playing alongside Duncan.

To me it seems Oberto plays better with Duncan...whereas Elson seems to do better out there with Manu and Barry...

Makes sense if you think about it...we are still more of a halfcourt team with our starters while our bench seems to be more transition oriented and Elson is definitely more suited to a transition style of game.

[ChumpDumper]

Really? Because I remember Nazr starting ahead of Rasho during the playoffs a couple years ago because Nazr was actually better during that time.

Why do you respond to my posts if you don't read them?

I also remember him losing his starting spot and not ever being able to regain it because of poor play, and not because "Rasho knows the system better".

Rasho always knew the system better, don't you get it? That's the only reason he would start over the more statistically productive Nazr.

By your logic, did that mean Barry & Turkoglu "knew the system better and that's why Manu was coming off the bench"?

No, all those guys knew the system and didn't play center.

Also, why is Elson averaging more minutes on the floor? By your logic, Popovich is purposely putting someone on the floor who is "nowhere near Oberto's ability to even consider starting" as a debate. Is Popovich purposely sabataging the Spurs by purposely playing someone "inferior" longer than the starter?

Again, you have trouble reading. Oberto fouls alot.

It sounds as if you really don't even want to give Elson a chance.

I have said precisely what Elson needs to do to start.

I'm not saying Elson should be starting(nor have I ever), but you are starting to sound discriminatory.

I discriminate against players who don't know the system? Okay, I can live with that.

I'm not calling you a racist or prejudice, but it does sound like you go out of your way to "knock" Elson without real reason.

You are calling me a racist. I am calling you a coward for being cir spect about it.

Being able to recover is why Tim Duncan is an excellent defender, it's not because "Tim is always out of position and sucks on defense".

Tim is an excellent defender because he is usually in the right position and makes his rotations in time.

My point was that Elson is much more athletic than Oberto and that's why he's able to recover better.

And my point is that's a good thing since he's out of position so often.

Oberto's higher foul percentage could be attributed to also being out of position as well as not being able to recover back to his guy and defend.

You could attribute it to that if you don't watch the games. He's been with the Spurs for over a year, so he knows the system better than Elson. Period. I actually think Elson is ahead of where I thought he would be at this point, but he's not where Oberto is. What is so difficult for you to understand?

We are starting to see people here who either see reason for debate because they are close or people who refuse to even consider a debate.

I considered the debate, looked up the stats, recalled some games and concluded Oberto does what the Spurs demand of their starting center better than Elson at this time. Elson certainly has more upside at the position given his natural abilities, but he has alot to learn before he can become a reliable starting center for the San Antonio Spurs.

Again, not calling you racist or prejudice

Again, you are. You wouldn't have brought it up twice if you weren't.

[T Park]

bringing out the race card is pathetic.

[Tom_Foolery]

Why do you keep bring up race?

ChumpDumper has given you a lot of real reasons for his arguments.

It just appears that way. One example of him going out of his way to discredit Elson was Elson's athelticism and being able to recover much better. To Mr. Dumper, it was because "he was so lost on defense", which makes no sense anyways.

Secondly, bringing up Rasho. When Nazr was with the Spurs, Rasho was starting in the beginning and very soon lost minutes and eventually lost his starting spot during the playoffs. The next season, Nazr went on leave during preseason, but was never able to pick up the momentum he had gained during the playoffs with his drop-off in play. According to Mr. Dumper, Rasho started because "he knew the system better", which is totally untrue. It was more about Nazr's poor play than it was about his "knowledge of the system".

2 white guys starting = 2 black guys not "smart enough to know the system" so they should be coming off the bench?

coincidence in the argument? i think not.

I really hope I am wrong. It would really be a disgrace to have prejudice Spurs fans.

[Tom_Foolery]

Also you keep saying Elson is averaging more minutes and you say it like there's a dramatic difference. Elson averages 19.6 minutes and Oberto 19.0. Virtually no difference.

They both have faults that will stop them from being 30mpg centers. Together, they put up decent numbers. If Elson rotates on defense and sets screens, he will likely get even more minutes than Oberto because he can play against the quick, athletic teams and he's not short. But right now, Elson gets pulled out of games and pulled aside by teammates quite regularly because of missing rotations.

And they don't do that for Oberto? I'm not arguing that Oberto knows the system...HE BETTER know the system than a person in his 1st season w/ the Spurs.

But, for all complaints, flaws, and inefficiencies you've pointed out about Elson, it still doesn't explain why Elson is STILL averaging more minutes.

You may not like Elson and maybe you see only things you want to see, but Pop is putting Elson on the floor for more minutes. And that says something.

[ChumpDumper]

If you want to play up the race angle, you'll have to refute my other points first.

You have utterly failed to do so.

You are a disgrace.

[Tom_Foolery]

I think another factor will be which one plays better alongside Duncan...that hurt Rasho more than anything IMO...he was less productive playing alongside Duncan.

To me it seems Oberto plays better with Duncan...whereas Elson seems to do better out there with Manu and Barry...

Makes sense if you think about it...we are still more of a halfcourt team with our starters while our bench seems to be more transition oriented and Elson is definitely more suited to a transition style of game.

That's a good point, except I would say Manu plays better with Oberto than he does with Elson and that's half the reason why Oberto is starting(the other half being Oberto knows the defense better than Elson).

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Until Elson knows everything that Oberto does and does it better, Oberto will start. He hasn't shown that.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

man this debate was so much better than the overdone rasho vs nazr debate where team nazr would just slam rasho and vice versa

I'd love to see how we fare against Utah (not to go off topic)

They are on a roll and always play tough and rugged against us.

I agree that Elson does miss out on a lot of rotations

maybe I'm just too excited about having a center than can run up the court and dunks the ball more often than a weak layup.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

man this debate was so much better than the overdone rasho vs nazr debate where team nazr would just slam rasho and vice versa

I'd love to see how we fare against Utah (not to go off topic)

They are on a roll and always play tough and rugged against us.

I agree that Elson does miss out on a lot of rotations

maybe I'm just too excited about having a center than can run up the court and dunks the ball more often than a weak layup.

Duncan will dominate Boozer as Oberto will dominate Okur. Bowen's gonna have a of a job to do on Kirilenko.

[Tom_Foolery]

Why do you respond to my posts if you don't read them?

I've read your responses and they often contradict your own statements. You do a lot of backpeddling.

Rasho always knew the system better, don't you get it? That's the only reason he would start over the more statistically productive Nazr.

Wrong. Nazr started in the playoffs his 1st season w/ the Spurs, over the "more knowledgeable-of-the-system Rasho". He didn't start the following season because his play dropped off, not because he didn't "know the system better". Obviously he knew the system enough to start his 1st season. It was Nazr's lack of fire & production that kept him from regaining the starting spot the following season.

No, all those guys knew the system and didn't play center.Again, you have trouble reading. Oberto fouls alot.I have said precisely what Elson needs to do to start.I discriminate against players who don't know the system?

So, you're saying "black people don't know the system, so they should not start over the white person who knows the system better"? How do you explain Nazr starting in the playoffs a couple years ago? I'm sure it has something to do with "black people not know the system"again(hahaha!).

Okay, I can live with that.You are calling me a racist. I am calling you a coward for being cir spect about it.Tim is an excellent defender because he is usually in the right position and makes his rotations in time.

He also recovers well and gets blocks.

And my point is that's a good thing since he's out of position so often.You could attribute it to that if you don't watch the games. He's been with the Spurs for over a year, so he knows the system better than Elson.

Still averages more fouls and less minutes than 1st year Elson, but I guess that's because "Elson doesn't know the system"?(omg.)

I actually think Elson is ahead of where I thought he would be at this point, but he's not where Oberto is. What is so difficult for you to understand?

I totally understand and agree. You just come off very suspect and coincidentally, your comments kind of reflect closet prejudiceness.

I considered the debate, looked up the stats, recalled some games and concluded Oberto does what the Spurs demand of their starting center better than Elson at this time. Elson certainly has more upside at the position given his natural abilities, but he has alot to learn before he can become a reliable starting center for the San Antonio Spurs.Again, you are. You wouldn't have brought it up twice if you weren't.

Sorry, I can't help if you come across as slightly prejudice/racist in some of your comments. It's just weird that you would purposely discredit and ignore the fact that Nazr started during the playoffs a couple years ago, thus proving your "he knows the system better, so he should start" argument into the "dumper"(hahaha...I like that one!). It just looked odd to me that you would say "he knows the system better"(of Oberto) but still not acknowledge that Rasho lost his starting position even though he "new the system". It was as if you hate to admit a "black player can actually know the system better and start".