Suns

[Xylus]

2005 playoffs.... wasnt Amare Healthy then??




4-1..... WHOOPS!!!

Suns are improving in defense.... maybe a fraction.... but they are still a run-and-gun, die-by-the-3-pointer team even WITH Amare.

Die-by-the-3-pointer team? You really think so? Let's look at the six Suns losses, and see if 3-point shooting had anything to do with the loss:

Oct 31 at LA Lakers - 13-30, 3PM-A, 43.3%
Nov 3 vs. Utah Jazz - 9-31, 3PM-A, 29.0%
Nov 4 at LA Clippers - 11-27, 3PM-A, 40.7%
Nov 8 at San Antonio - 10-23, 3PM-A, 43.5%
Nov 9 vs. Dallas Mavs - 11-21, 3PM-A, 52.4%
Nov 18 at Utah - 7-18, 3PM-A, 38.9%

The Suns shot reasonably well from the 3-point line, apart from that first Jazz game. The reason why they lost all these games is because they had no defensive chemistry at the beginning of the season. They were still trying to integrate Amare, and it look a few weeks to do so successfully.

The Suns' two worst 3-point shooting performances occurred during dominant wins.

Dec 10 at Charlotte - 5-18, 3PM-A, 27.8%, Suns win 114-84
Dec 11 at Orlando - 4-16, 3PM-A, 25.0%, Suns win 103-89

Obviously, the Suns played pretty decent defense in these two games.

The Suns have developed a defensive chemistry and are winning over and over and over because of it. There have been a couple of nights on this win streak where their shot just wasn't falling, but they still managed to win handily. Furthermore, the Suns now have an inside and outside game--Amare Stoudemire is eating up the opposition, and Boris Diaw is becoming the aggressive point-center that he was late last season.

And lastly, the Suns have a point differential of 6.9 ppg, 2nd best in the league, 2nd only to the Spurs.

[RonMexico]

2005 playoffs.... wasnt Amare Healthy then??




4-1..... WHOOPS!!!

Suns are improving in defense.... maybe a fraction.... but they are still a run-and-gun, die-by-the-3-pointer team even WITH Amare.

You're an idiot - duh, they really didn't play defense back then, which was one of my main points. So they go out and get Kurt Thomas to help down low and then both of them get hurt the next year, you in' wiseass... read my whole argument before you post. Amare is trying to play defense for the first time in his career this year and it's good to see.

Hmmm, they don't "die-by-the-3" when they have outscored their opponent in the paint in the last 4 games - and 2 of those games had 7-point stretches inside by Amare to close out the game(s): vs. Golden State and the Kings.

Oh, and btw, the Suns are 14-1 vs. teams below-.500 and 4-5 vs. teams above-.500. What are the Spurs, you ask? Why, they are 15-1 vs. teams below-.500 and 4-5 vs. teams above-.500, so why don't you do a little more research on your 2006 WCSF loser before trying to talk too much right now.

[RonMexico]

And as far as I can see, you're making arguments about the potential of certain players to be effective rebounders, and while that's all well and good, it's not in any way indicative of how they'll actually perform. Rebounding is generally a skill that one has or one doesn't, and it doesn't take long to tell if someone doesn't.

Will you stop fellating Ben Wallace and look at what you just said about potential and it being a skill someone has? Ben had a 0 pt, 0 rebound game earlier this year when he was acting like a little baby (and therefore, had no motivation to try and do the only thing he can out on the court - rebound). So, what happens - the team puts that all behind them, they rattle off a few wins, and he racks up 2 20+ rebound games in a row. I guess he just acquired that great rebounding skill recently is what you're saying? He didn't have to work for position and fight people off and time the ball properly?

Amare and Co. can time the ball very well coming off the basket - where they fall into trouble is that they get lazy in boxing people out and trying to get position and that leads to offensive boards for the other team. Trust me, they're NBA players - they have a rebounding skill, but it takes a few practices where the coaches force them to put a body on a player when the ball goes up.

Ben Wallace wasn't grabbing down 20+ per game in his 2nd season. I guess he worked on rebounding because he soon realized he would contribute nothing on the offensive end, where Amare is more than adequate. Shooting is a skill someone has - rebounding is about brute force, strength, and desire.

[AZLouis]

Let's not forget that only 2 of the 15 teams beaten during this streak had winning records.

Rockets and Magic.

Everybody else were losers and some of the teams were missing guys named Wade, Shaq, Bosh, Calderon.

Impressive streak yes.

Now they'll start playing PO contenders such as Denver (w/o AI or Melo), Wizards (Arenas wants to drop 50 cause of the Team USA thing), and then Dallas followed by SA.

We'll find out just how good the Suns have gotten.

[RonMexico]

Let's not forget that only 2 of the 15 teams beaten during this streak had winning records.

Rockets and Magic.

Everybody else were losers and some of the teams were missing guys named Wade, Shaq, Bosh, Calderon.

Impressive streak yes.

Now they'll start playing PO contenders such as Denver (w/o AI or Melo), Wizards (Arenas wants to drop 50 cause of the Team USA thing), and then Dallas followed by SA.

We'll find out just how good the Suns have gotten.

I'll repeat how the Suns' record compares to the top team in the West:

The Suns are 14-1 vs. teams below-.500 and 4-5 vs. teams above-.500.

The Spurs are 15-1 vs. teams below-.500 and 4-5 vs. teams above-.500.

The Mavs have lost 3 games to below-.500 opponents, and have a slightly better edge against teams with +.500 records.

Head-to-head, the Suns need to show they belong there, but don't start bringing up the "soft schedule led to this streak" bull . A franchise-record streak and longest in the NBA since the Lakers had 19 isn't anything to turn your nose at. Are you trying to tell me that the stars aligned just right for this 06-07 Suns and no other team (like say, the 05-06 Pistons and 04-05 Suns who both jumped out to 30-4 records) in the past few years? The key to this Suns streak is that they have been beating the teams they should, while in years past they tended to play down to their compe ion and would get jumped on by a mediocre team.

However, with Dallas next week and SA after, let's hope they can play up to their compe ion.

[boutons_]

Suns @Mavs on 28th and @Pistons on 31st.

I doubt the streak survives to 2007, but if it does, it will be most impressive.

[phyzik]

Die-by-the-3-pointer team? You really think so? Let's look at the six Suns losses, and see if 3-point shooting had anything to do with the loss:

Oct 31 at LA Lakers - 13-30, 3PM-A, 43.3%
Nov 3 vs. Utah Jazz - 9-31, 3PM-A, 29.0%
Nov 4 at LA Clippers - 11-27, 3PM-A, 40.7%
Nov 8 at San Antonio - 10-23, 3PM-A, 43.5%
Nov 9 vs. Dallas Mavs - 11-21, 3PM-A, 52.4%
Nov 18 at Utah - 7-18, 3PM-A, 38.9%

The Suns shot reasonably well from the 3-point line, apart from that first Jazz game. The reason why they lost all these games is because they had no defensive chemistry at the beginning of the season. They were still trying to integrate Amare, and it look a few weeks to do so successfully.

The Suns' two worst 3-point shooting performances occurred during dominant wins.

Dec 10 at Charlotte - 5-18, 3PM-A, 27.8%, Suns win 114-84
Dec 11 at Orlando - 4-16, 3PM-A, 25.0%, Suns win 103-89

Obviously, the Suns played pretty decent defense in these two games.

The Suns have developed a defensive chemistry and are winning over and over and over because of it. There have been a couple of nights on this win streak where their shot just wasn't falling, but they still managed to win handily. Furthermore, the Suns now have an inside and outside game--Amare Stoudemire is eating up the opposition, and Boris Diaw is becoming the aggressive point-center that he was late last season.

And lastly, the Suns have a point differential of 6.9 ppg, 2nd best in the league, 2nd only to the Spurs.

Thanks for proving my point...., with just the stats you provided they are averaging 23 3's a game, what other team do you know of that jacks up THAT many 3's? Once they face a defensive effort in the paint they will become that jump shooting team that lives and dies by the 3.

[JMarkJohns]

Thanks for proving my point...., with just the stats you provided they are averaging 23 3's a game, what other team do you know of that jacks up THAT many 3's? Once they face a defensive effort in the paint they will become that jump shooting team that lives and dies by the 3.

While I agree with what you're saying, of late, the average number of three-point attempts is down. Early season it's all they did, now it's just one of many.

Also, Amare, if you didn't know, has been very close to a double-digit rebounder the last 15 games. Overall, in the streak he's at 9-per. Throw out his three worst games and he's up at 10.25. SO far this year he's had five games of 12-or-more rebounds and a dozen of double digits.

He is improving. It's not even all about the numbers, he's actually bodying up and boxing out now. He's working at rebounding, not just rebounding. That's important because for a long time, Kurt Thomas was the only box-out rebounder the Suns had.

The Suns certainly need to attack the glass. Believe it or not, they are a pretty solid defensive team, so long as they can finish the stop by getting the defensive board. If they can keep other team's offensive rebound totals down, then they will go a long way to improve their defensive statistics.

It would definately be nice to get another quality big like Steven Hunter or Gadzuric, but I don't think they entirely depend upon it. Backup PG is still the biggest concern. Barbosa can play it, but you can tell he's uncomfortable trying to run an offense. He's still a SG first and foremost.

And yes, like AzLouis, I look at this streak as more of a blessing than a sign. True, they are beating the teams they are supposed to, something that hasn't been said of a Suns team in a while. Still, beating just two good teams during the stretch still leaves some worry as to whether they'll be this good vs. better teams.

I would still say San Antonio is tops, followed by a neck-n-neck Dallas/Phoenix duo...

[tsb2000]

While the Suns have won 15 in a row, the Spurs have the best record in the NBA.

Mark 2/1/07 on your calendars- it's on!

[stretch]

The Suns manage to nearly push you guys 7 games last year with no amare,kurt thomas, and Raja Bell playing on 1 ing leg and they eliminated you 2 years ago. They are going to be ing tough in a series and it is re ed to deny that.

the Mavericks NEARLY pushed the Spurs 3 years ago to 7 games without Dirk. does it mean they were on the level of the Spurs? absolutely not.

ill tell you whats re ed. whats re ed is to think that a team that plays NO defense and cant rebound for is a le contender.

[stretch]

Thank you. At least you know more then 2 teams are very capable of winning it all.

I agree the west is loaded too. but the only TRUE le contenders are the Mavericks and Spurs. its loaded for the regular season, but the only teams that are built for the playoffs are the Mavericks and Spurs. only a total ing moron wouldnt take the Mavs or the Spurs against ANY team in the west in a 7 game series.

[stretch]

BTW the Heat werent exactly an amazing defensive club either yet they managed to win the le. Go figure

they were a far better defensive team, had an intimidating interior presence in Shaq, and could actually REBOUND the ing ball. the Suns have NONE of that. i never said anything about being amazing defensively. but you at least have to play an ounce of defense, which the Suns dont.

[stretch]

Eh, I still don't see them as a powerhouse come playoff time. Remember, in 2003, the Mavs started out 14-0 and everyone jumped on their sack. Fact of the matter is, the Suns are just the like the Mavs and Kings from 3-4 years ago. All scoring, no defense. Unless the Suns add some rebounders (besides Marion) and start playing defense, they're not going anywhere.

thank you. its nice to see someone knows that the Suns are not a true le contender.

[JMarkJohns]

And actually the Suns last year only made it to game six vs. Dallas. Not game seven. Their other two series were seven games, but after winning the first game against Dallas (in Dallas?), they lost Bell and then the series in the next five. They were close to pushing it to a game seven, but were far too tired to sustain their early game-six success.

San Antonio > Dallas > Phoenix

[stretch]

Dirk still plays NO defense and has ZERO ability to deliver in the clutch. Jason Terry still plays NO defense and is equally ty when the game is on the line. The Mavs have NO offensive options besides running the ball through Dirk. Josh Howard still has NO discipline and is an immature punk who gets frustrated by Bruce Bowen in the first game of the year and has to throw an elbow.

I was RIGHT about to make a reply to your previous post, until i saw this, and realized how much of a dumb you are. im not even going to waste my time trying to prove how wrong you are to such a dip comment like that.

[101A]

In perspective:

The Streak:

@ Golden State
vs New Orleans
vs New Jersey
@ Portland
vs Houston
vs Milwaukee
vs Sacramento
@ New Jersey
@ Boston
@ Charlotte
@ Orlando
@ Miami
vs Golden State
@ Sacramento
vs Toronto

[dirk4mvp]

I was RIGHT about to make a reply to your previous post, until i saw this, and realized how much of a dumb you are. im not even going to waste my time trying to prove how wrong you are to such a dip comment like that.

Because his purple and orange shades that are glued to his head won't allow him to see how much of a hypocrite comment he posted about not playing defense and the ball only runs through Dirk when in reality Dallas has 5 players that can score when they want to and PHX is full of spot up shooters who wait till nash delivers a pass. Talk about the offense running through one player.

[Texas_Ranger]

In perspective:

The Streak:

@ Golden State
vs New Orleans
vs New Jersey
@ Portland
vs Houston
vs Milwaukee
vs Sacramento
@ New Jersey
@ Boston
@ Charlotte
@ Orlando
@ Miami
vs Golden State
@ Sacramento
vs Toronto

Nice streak.
They won some tough teams.

[JMarkJohns]

Me thinks most Mavericks fans are a little too smug for their own good. Last I checked, you were still in the same boat as the Suns... As in 0-fer with regards to a le.

Suns defeating Dallas in 2004-05 didn't ensure that they would in 2005-06.

See if your finite minds can grasp where I'm going with this... True, you beat both the Spurs and the Suns last year. As far as I know, last year has very little bearing on this year, 'specially since both the Spurs and Suns are very different teams than the ones the Mavericks beat.

It's one thing to think your a contender. It's another thing entirely to act as king, when you're no closer than the team you are belittling.

Yours is a good team with great potential. Still, like the Suns they have their flaws and, like the Suns, they haven't a banner giving cause to their overconfidence.

Being realistic is the best approach when your team hasn't a le for its fans to stand on.

[Bob Lanier]

Will you stop fellating Ben Wallace and look at what you just said about potential and it being a skill someone has?

I haven't mentioned his name all year. But as for his rebounding - yes, it has always been his hallmark; he had exceptional rebound rates in all his years in Washington and Orlando.

Your point about some 0&0 game is a non sequitur: all players go into slumps. It doesn't mean that they've lost the skills.

Amare Stoudemire has always been an average rebounder at best, even for an undersized power forward. That is not something that changes at his age. He may have stretches where he becomes an above-average to good rebounder with his improved fundamentals, as Antonio McDyess has, but he will never be a great one.

Shooting is a skill someone has - rebounding is about brute force, strength, and desire

Was it you who was arguing that Steve Kerr was a better player than Rodman? Jesus.

[dknights411]

Me thinks most Mavericks fans are a little too smug for their own good. Last I checked, you were still in the same boat as the Suns... As in 0-fer with regards to a le.

Suns defeating Dallas in 2004-05 didn't ensure that they would in 2005-06.

See if your finite minds can grasp where I'm going with this... True, you beat both the Spurs and the Suns last year. As far as I know, last year has very little bearing on this year, 'specially since both the Spurs and Suns are very different teams than the ones the Mavericks beat.

It's one thing to think your a contender. It's another thing entirely to act as king, when you're no closer than the team you are belittling.

Yours is a good team with great potential. Still, like the Suns they have their flaws and, like the Suns, they haven't a banner giving cause to their overconfidence.

Being realistic is the best approach when your team hasn't a le for its fans to stand on.

Nice post!

[stretch]

Me thinks most Mavericks fans are a little too smug for their own good. Last I checked, you were still in the same boat as the Suns... As in 0-fer with regards to a le.

Suns defeating Dallas in 2004-05 didn't ensure that they would in 2005-06.

See if your finite minds can grasp where I'm going with this... True, you beat both the Spurs and the Suns last year. As far as I know, last year has very little bearing on this year, 'specially since both the Spurs and Suns are very different teams than the ones the Mavericks beat.

It's one thing to think your a contender. It's another thing entirely to act as king, when you're no closer than the team you are belittling.

Yours is a good team with great potential. Still, like the Suns they have their flaws and, like the Suns, they haven't a banner giving cause to their overconfidence.

Being realistic is the best approach when your team hasn't a le for its fans to stand on.

i dont see how saying that a team that plays no defense and cannot rebound is not a le contender, means that we are being smug. thats how it has always been. anyone that knows a damn thing about basketball knows that. the Mavs were the same way a few years ago, and therefore they never won a le. the Suns have shown that they play no defense, and are a poor rebounding team, therefore it is incredibly unlikely that they will win a le.

[JMarkJohns]

Amare Stoudemire has always been an average rebounder at best, even for an undersized power forward. That is not something that changes at his age. He may have stretches where he becomes an above-average to good rebounder with his improved fundamentals, as Antonio McDyess has, but he will never be a great one.

I would agree with this. I think his ceiling is around 10 boards a game. Maybe 11, but that's pushing things. I'll be happy with 10 per game.

[JMarkJohns]

i dont see how saying that a team that plays no defense and cannot rebound is not a le contender, means that we are being smug. thats how it has always been. anyone that knows a damn thing about basketball knows that. the Mavs were the same way a few years ago, and therefore they never won a le. the Suns have shown that they play no defense, and are a poor rebounding team, therefore it is incredibly unlikely that they will win a le.

You obviously don't watch too many Suns games. I'll give you credit for no rebounding... They are a mediocre, to average rebounding team. Or at least have been for much of the season. It'll be interesting to see if their recent improvement can remain against good rebounding teams like Dallas.

However, if you watched the Suns, you'd know they do play defense. In fact, their defensive plan is rather effective. They swarm. They aren't big, so traditional defense isn't of use to them. What they have is length and quickness and they use it as well as any team uses their size. They force many, many first-possession misses. In fact, last year, they had one of te top-5 first-possession defensive FG% in the NBA. They get a good amount of steals and blocks to boot.

Their biggest problem, rebounding, unfortunately stems from their defensive strategy. Because they swarm, or rotate to the purists, they are constantly out of position for rebounds. They aren't necessarily within rebounding distance of the basket, let alone within arms reach of a man to box out. Because of this, they give up a HUGE amount of offensive rebounds, most of which end up as easy putbacks. These putbacks affect their PPG, their PPG differential and their defensive FG%.

I'm not sure if there's anything that can be done about it. That's why I'm so anxious for tonight's game vs. a good rebounding team in Denver and then against Dallas, a very good rebounding team.

During this streak, they've made strides. How much is them, and how much was the compe ion is yet to be known.

However, for you to flat out say they don't play defense is wrong. Maybe last year, when they had no frontcourt depth and couldn't afford fouls, they didn't play much, but this year they have been pretty solid.

They will always have a high PPG allowed bbecause of their style of play, so just looking at their final scores won't tell you much.

They have issues. I'm not denying that. Still, they are not the only contending team with them. That was the point. Last year was last year. Early season was early season. Now is now. Things change. In the NBA, they do so often. You can't use last year's success as a foundation for gloating this season (unless you win the le, which you failed to do) as none of the teams are the same.

While not entirely you, many Maverick fans have been forgetting this and belittling other fans/teams. They are en led to root for their team. Remember, it wasn't long ago when your Mavericks were the team routinely getting trounced in the Semi's...

[N4th4n]

JmarkJohns saying things I agree with. What do you know its like -20 here in Phoenix.