Rockets vs Spurs - Plus/Minus

[Bruno]

Which conclusion from the +/- did you not agree with?

I haven't watched the Rockets game, so I have nothing to say about these conclusions. I'm sure that they are right.

It was just a general remark because sometimes people say that a player has been good only because his +/- stats are great on a game.

[wildbill2u]

When Bowen and El/berto aren't giving us any offense, the big 3 are playing 3 on 5. The lack of points and rebounds from the 3 and 5 position last night were telling. You can't simply point to the defense and say there's the problem in one of those +/-
ratios because part of the equasion is offense as well.

That being said, when Bowen needs a break, put Manu on his man. He's not as skilled as Bowen on defense, but he will be all over the guy like stink on and never quit trying. Perpetual Harrassment will go a long way to unsettling even a veteran shooter.

Axiom: Never take out both Parker and TD when Manu is replacing Bowen.

Then your lineup is something like --ManuSF , BarrySG, TDPF, El/Berto, Beno or Vaugn. You could replace El/berto with Horry at PF and move Tim to C.

or in the other subs ution with TD out --ManuSF, Parker, Elberto, Horry, Beno or Vaughn.

Either way or with any other adjustment I can figure out, when Bowen leaves the defense suffers. The question is whether they can play well enough on offense to pick up the difference.

Some people may want to spot subs ute Finley for Barry in these lineups but he's not giving us much IMHO and Barry should be getting the minutes ahead of him.

, I bet this same problem with rotation is giving Pop fits. Nothing works right.

[Que Gee]

Somehow Parker and Bowen got most of the blame tonight ... and they led the team in +/-.

Shows you how clueless most Spurs fans are.

Ya, the +/- explains everything....

[ShoogarBear]

That being said, when Bowen needs a break, put Manu on his man. He's not as skilled as Bowen on defense, but he will be all over the guy like stink on and never quit trying. Perpetual Harrassment will go a long way to unsettling even a veteran shooter.

McGrady destroyed Manu last night. Manu is a great off-the-ball/help defender, but on the ball he's average at best. On at least one play Manu was playing about seven feet off McGrady, like his first priority was to try to help on somebody else.

[wildbill2u]

McGrady destroyed Manu last night. Manu is a great off-the-ball/help defender, but on the ball he's average at best. On at least one play Manu was playing about seven feet off McGrady, like his first priority was to try to help on somebody else.

McGrady is a special case that no one can stop, even Bowen. As I recall, McGrady lit Bowen up too, even when Bowen was inside his jersey on some plays. I mean his shooting can be unreal sometimes.

However, I don't think Manu is as bad a defender as you seem to think. I'm not talking about one play or even whether he is as good as Bowen, but who else do we have that can replace Bowen in that slot on a regular basis?

Guess we have a difference of opinion.

[timvp]

but who else do we have that can replace Bowen in that slot on a regular basis?

You have discovered flaw #2342B in the team's roster.

[timvp]

Ya, the +/- explains everything....

Barry at -14 didn't exactly help your cause . . .

[ShoogarBear]

The difference is that Bowen was inside his jersey. Once again, stats don't tell you how difficult the shot was or how hard he had to work for it.

I didn't say Manu was a bad defender. I just said he's nowhere close to Bowen's class. If you think he is, then yeah, we do have a difference of opinion.

[wildbill2u]

The difference is that Bowen was inside his jersey. Once again, stats don't tell you how difficult the shot was or how hard he had to work for it.

I didn't say Manu was a bad defender. I just said he's nowhere close to Bowen's class. If you think he is, then yeah, we do have a difference of opinion.

Actually you did imply that he's a bad defender--'average at best' one on one seems like a knock on Manu that isn't justified. When he gets determined, he's like a terrier with a rat.

[doldrums]

I'm usually quick to criticize a thead, but this thread has not only been interesting to read but also very informative.

[aaronstampler]

Okay, it's pretty simple.

In each half Manu plays the first six minutes, then sits for four, then plays another six, then sits for four, and then plays the final four. That totals 16 minutes, or 32 for the game.

Tony plays the whole 1st quarter (like he did last year), sits for seven, then plays the last five. 17 minutes, or 34 for the game.

Tim plays the first ten minutes, sits for five, plays for seven, then sits the final two to protect him from foul trouble. If need be he plays the final two in the second half as well. Anyway it'll be either 34 or 36 minutes, depending.

With this scenario, we'd only have six minutes out of 24 where two of them aren't on the floor, the first three of the second quarter (just Manu) and minutes 16-19 (just Tim). We'd never leave Tony by himself, which I think is critical here.

I think what's hurting us is we're taking Tony out too early these days. Let him go back to playing the whole 1st like he used to. If the solo Manu lineup struggles in the 2nd quarter it'll be for only three minutes instead of the five or six it'd been.

[ShoogarBear]

Actually you did imply that he's a bad defender--'average at best' one on one seems like a knock on Manu that isn't justified. When he gets determined, he's like a terrier with a rat.

Manu is a great off-the-ball/help defender, but on the ball he's average at best.

Maybe you can remind me of the last good offensive player Manu shut down.

Got durn unless you say Manu is the greatest of all time at everything, people get prickly.

[anonymous coward]

Barry at -14 didn't exactly help your cause . . .

tmac's -6 (worst on the rockets), doent help your case too

[wildbill2u]

Maybe you can remind me of the last good offensive player Manu shut down.

Got durn unless you say Manu is the greatest of all time at everything, people get prickly.

I never said he could lock down a great offensive player. Not many can when they're on--including Bruce as he showed the other night.

However, some times a third party's opinion can carry some weight.

Sportswriter John Hollister picks Manu as his All-star Guard again and here is his final reasoning for choosing him among all the other guards in the West:

"Capping it off, he is also easily the best defensive player in the group, something for which he doesn't get nearly enough credit."

Now you go find some national sportswriter that says Manu doesn't play good defense.

[platnumdelgado]

Rockets!!!

[johnpaulwall21]

who is this assclown talkin bout the rockets, hes a nobody so i will leave it at that

[platnumdelgado]

aight johnpaulwall1, dont be mad that dem Rockets whoop da ass last night in they're own building without our star...............Yall are done...............Sad!

[ChumpDumper]

Stay in school.

[johnpaulwall21]

who?

[ChumpDumper]

If you have to ask, both of you.

[johnpaulwall21]

still talkin even though i havent said about u, but whatever man

[ShoogarBear]

I never said he could lock down a great offensive player. Not many can when they're on--including Bruce as he showed the other night.

However, some times a third party's opinion can carry some weight.

Sportswriter John Hollister picks Manu as his All-star Guard again and here is his final reasoning for choosing him among all the other guards in the West:

"Capping it off, he is also easily the best defensive player in the group, something for which he doesn't get nearly enough credit."

Now you go find some national sportswriter that says Manu doesn't play good defense.

a) Hollinger's a primary statistician who's mediocre writings when he strays from his numbers have already been ripped on this board before, so you'd do better to find a more respected opinion. BUT

b) if you want to quote him, then you would be better served to actually read what he said. When he said "the best defensive player in the group", he specifically named the group as "Tony Parker, Seattle's Ray Allen, the Hornets' Chris Paul, Denver's Allen Iverson, Houston's Tracy McGrady, Sacramento's Kevin Martin, and Golden State's Baron Davis". Hardly an all-defense squad.

Finally, Manu rarely guards anyone of real consequence for any lengthy duration of time.