Ultimate Proof Brent Barry Gets Scared

[whottt]

I'm hoping that whottt and Brent Barry own me in this thread. If this thread gets bumped, I'll be the happiest poster here.

But when I watch him and he looks scared on the road and then I check the numbers and it's even worse than I could ever imagine, Barry deserves to be called out.

This is about winning championships. Not pretending player's don't have weaknesses.

Who said Barry doesn't have weaknesses? I just disagree with what they are, and how to overcome them.


You've been trying to gloss Barry as a choker for 3 years now...and he's not, and everyone knows he's not...if anything, he's above average clutch...sure he had a choke against the Mavs last year...but he also was severely limited in his role.


Bottom line is that this team has never suffered when Barry's been a major part of the rotation..it's usually when he's not that they do.


And Barry can go scoreless and still have a good game....unlike most of the guys on our roster...a lot of guys suck when they go scoreless...Barry really doesn't....our offense still runs smooth.


And to think...I was just about to give you credit for finally realizing how Barry helps the offense...and now this.


It's the way Pop uses him...that's what it has always been.


Sure you can give Barry fault now for not adjusting...but he did finally adjust, and Pop still doesn't know what he wants from Barry consistently.

[timvp]

You've been trying to gloss Barry as a choker for 3 years now...and he's not, and everyone knows he's not...if anything, he's above average clutch

Link to where I said Barry was a choker? I've said he plays scared at times and he does. And just like you've said, he's choked at times ... but he's not a choker.

...sure he had a choke against the Mavs last year...but he also was severely limited in his role.

Which is your go-to excuse when Barry plays poorly. Blame it on Pop and the offense. Same take every time.

Bottom line is that this team has never suffered when Barry's been a major part of the rotation..it's usually when he's not that they do.

In these playoffs, the Spurs are undefeated (5-0) when Barry plays under 12 minutes in a game.

Care to restate that point?

And Barry can go scoreless and still have a good game....unlike most of the guys on our roster...a lot of guys suck when they go scoreless...Barry really doesn't....our offense still runs smooth.


And to think...I was just about to give you credit for finally realizing how Barry helps the offense...and now this.

I give Barry props when it's deserved. I thought he was great in Game 3 and 4. I think Game 3 was the best I've ever seen him play for the Spurs.

But then comes Game 5 when he basically takes the Robert Horry role and he lays a huge egg that could have cost the Spurs the season.

It's the way Pop uses him...that's what it has always been.

Sure you can give Barry fault now for not adjusting...but he did finally adjust, and Pop still doesn't know what he wants from Barry consistently.

Back to the go-to excuse again.

[Bruno]

Statistically speaking, there is a 0.4% chance of this happening by chance, if my math is right.

So yeah, Barry isn't getting scared on the road, it's just a mathematical accident

So let's forget more reliable thing like the fact that Barry wasn't better at home than on the road during the 05 and 06 campaign.

Your point is just a funny stat and a coincidence, nothing more.

BTW, what was your conclusion about Manu in your thread about him being better at home than on the road ?

[GrandeDavid]

I was discussing Brent Barry in another thread when I accidentally stumbled upon perhaps the most tellings stats in the history of civilization.

I've often said that the only thing that holds Brent Barry back is his timidness. When he's not playing scared, he's a fantastic bench player. When he's playing scared, he's a huge liability.

To best see how a player reacts to adversity and whether they shrivel up and get timid or fight through it is by looking at what they do on the road. On the road, it's the five players on the court versus the world. It's not a situation for the meek.

Now this is what I've stumbled upon:

Well its nice that he'll be at home for the first elimination game of the series so we don't have to worry about him getting...scared? I wouldn't associate a thirteen or whatever year veteran with getting scared. I don't think enough is ever asked of him to scare him. But if this goes seven or if the Spurs advance, I'll try to pay more attention to him.

[Rick Von Braun]

Fluke?

What's the statistically likelihood that out of ten games, with five at home and five on the road, that one would blindly pick the five road games?

I'm sure some math whiz can come up with that answer for you.

I have to agree with timvp. The likelihood that the behavior is not strongly correlated is minimum. If you watch the game, you can clearly see it... in game 5 you could almost smell his fear on the screen. He plays timidly even at home methinks.

However, I wouldn't mind Brent taking some minutes to backup TP at the point, even on the road. Vaughn has been putrid to put it lightly.

[timvp]

However, I wouldn't mind Brent taking some minutes to backup TP at the point, even on the road. Vaughn has been putrid to put it lightly.

RVB with the homerun.

Barry at his worst >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jacque Vaughn

[whottt]

You also bashed Horry last year against the Mavs...

Did Horry all of a sudden become scared? Or did Pop not put him on the court?

You can't be a late game hero if you aren't in the game late...

See, game 5 V Det.

I can think of tons of times that every player in NBA history has sucked their first 15 minutes of PT...

If that was the criteria, AI couldn't get a job in the CBA.

Barry had never been just a spot up shooter in his career before coming here, he'd never been a scorer, he was combo guard with high PCT(because he was selective) shooting ability.


I rip him when he does stupid stuff...I don't consider not jacking up a shot per minute as stupid...


I don't rip him for not being a scorer because he isn't one, and he never has been.

I don't rip him for not being a chucker, because I personally think having too many chuckers sucks...and we've got a bunch of them. And if he was..

I don't rip him for ty d because...get serious...did you think he was going to play D?


I rip him for shooting bad shots and making bad passes...he doesn't do it that often, he doesn't get the chance too.

[Cry Havoc]

Aka I don't want to read things that destroy the statiscal fluke I've found.

Yeah, he's been REALLY dominant this year on the road.

[timvp]

You also bashed Horry last year against the Mavs...

Link? I wanted more Horry last year in the playoffs. He didn't play well against the Mavs, but I don't remember ever advocating not playing him last year.

Did Horry all of a sudden become scared? Or did Pop not put him on the court?

You can't be a late game hero if you aren't in the game late...

See, game 5 V Det.

You trying to argue with me about playing Horry is pretty funny. Unless I'm mistaken, timvp and whottt were the only ones who didn't want Horry waived.

I can think of tons of times that every player in NBA history has sucked their first 15 minutes of PT...

If that was the criteria, AI couldn't get a job in the CBA.

Barry had never been just a spot up shooter in his career before coming here, he'd never been a scorer, he was combo guard with high PCT shooting ability.

So you are going with Bruno's theory of statistical fluke?

[timvp]

Oh and to show this isn't about scoring, Barry is +35 at home in the playoffs and -21 on the road.

More fluke stats, I'm sure.

It just so happens that at home, Barry's +/- production is more than three times better than any other player on the team. And on the road, it's second worst to Elson.

[GrandeDavid]

RVB with the homerun.

Barry at his worst >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jacque Vaughn

EXACTLY!! I cannot believe Pop's stubborness in continuing to force feed the rotation with a steady diet of the ultimate useless veteran, Jacques Vaughn. Talk about scared. This cat is shook. True, he's hit a couple of jump shots, but he's like a bad luck charm. He gets on the floor and the game flow almost instantly goes against the Spurs.

I would love to see Brent Barry bringing the rock up some next game, especially since it promises to be a more grind it out style.

[Bruno]

Oh and to show this isn't about scoring, Barry is +35 at home in the playoffs and -21 on the road.

More fluke stats, I'm sure.

It just so happens that at home, Barry's +/- production is more than three times better than any other player on the team. And on the road, it's second worst to Elson.

I was just looking at the +/- stat and I was typing a post on it.

To me, this stat is far more relevant than the fact that Barry score one basket at home and 0 on the road.

[timvp]

EXACTLY!! I cannot believe Pop's stubborness in continuing to force feed the rotation with a steady diet of the ultimate useless veteran, Jacques Vaughn. Talk about scared. This cat is shook. True, he's hit a couple of jump shots, but he's like a bad luck charm. He gets on the floor and the game flow almost instantly goes against the Spurs.

I would love to see Brent Barry bringing the rock up some next game, especially since it promises to be a more grind it out style.

Vaughn just sucks. I don't think he plays that scared.

That's why when Spurs fans thought they found Speedy Jr. earlier in the season, I was on record as waiting to see if he can do anything in the playoffs when the defenses adjust.

To be fair to Barry, since he's played half of his games at home and might be the best Spur so far in the playoffs at home, he's actually been pretty damn good so far in the playoffs all told. He's no where near the level of overall inep ude that Vaughn and Elson bring to the table.

Seriously, what other team still in the playoffs have a player in their rotation worse than either Vaughn or Elson?

[timvp]

I was just looking at the +/- stat and I was typing a post on it.

To me, this stat is far more relevant than the fact that Barry score one basket at home and 0 on the road.

Glad you see the light.

See you in the next thread.

[T Park]

Seriously, what other team still in the playoffs have a player in their rotation worse than either Vaughn or Elson?

Nets or the cavaliers have to..

[Bruno]

Glad you see the light.

See you in the next thread.

We will see if Barry will be better at home or on the road for the next 10 playoffs games (if he has the oportunity to play 10 more playoffs games).

And don't hesitate too to bump this thread if you're wrong.

[duncan228]

I'm nervous to jump into this. Just an observation...

I lived outside of Seattle for years and saw lots and lots of Sonics games.
I love Barry in general, he seems like a pleasant, funny guy.
BUT: He can disappear fast, even on his home court. I watched him do it in Seattle, I've watched him do it as a Spur.
I don't have the head for stats like you guys do, I'm not even going to try to back myself up that way. I just know what I've seen the guy do for years on 2 teams. He can get hot and bring some energy to the floor or he can not show up.

Again, I love him. I hope he can bring it Friday, we're going to need every one to bring it. And from what you guys have posted I am glad we're home. (I was glad anyway, now even more so.)

[whottt]

Hey timvp...does Barry avg more minutes on the road or at home?

Why do I not even have to look to know that answer?

I know, I know...Barry isn't allowed to have a rought start like every other player in NBA history...but just humor me here.


And for the 12334235432656435645645767665 time...+/- is useless over a small sample size....and entir playoff run is still a small enough sample size for a single game to influence the +/- numers heavily.

[whottt]

I'm nervous to jump into this. Just an observation...

I lived outside of Seattle for years and saw lots and lots of Sonics games.
I love Barry in general, he seems like a pleasant, funny guy.
BUT: He can disappear fast, even on his home court. I watched him do it in Seattle, I've watched him do it as a Spur.
I don't have the head for stats like you guys do, I'm not even going to try to back myself up that way. I just know what I've seen the guy do for years on 2 teams. He can get hot and bring some energy to the floor or he can not show up.

Again, I love him. I hope he can bring it Friday, we're going to need every one to bring it. And from what you guys have posted I am glad we're home. (I was glad anyway, now even more so.)

This true of all NBA players except for the absolute all time elite at their positions...

You know the only guy that doesn't disappear on this team frequently? Duncan...All History Player.

[slayermin]

He had a couple of open looks last night but missed them. He doesn't seem to be tight on the road. Wasn't he cracking jokes about the bomb threat?

[whottt]

Link?

Weak asking for a link when you know the search function doesn't work....

You trying to argue with me about playing Horry is pretty funny. Unless I'm mistaken, timvp and whottt were the only ones who didn't want Horry waived.



So you are going with Bruno's theory of statistical fluke?

I think it's a case of Pop being more conservative with the rotation on the road than at home...and that Barry can't figure out what Pop wants of him to stay a major part of the rotation. He deserved more minutes based on his PT at home...he didn't get them.

And IMO, there's nothing Barry can do...Pop will lose a championship with FinDog taking shots away from Duncan up to the last second of the game, before putting Barry on the court in that situation...and it doesn't matter if Barry is shooting 100%.

I honestly would like to hear Duncan's opinion on the matter....Barry's probably the best guy on the team at looking for Duncan(when Pop isn't forcing it) and setting him up for easy baskets...

[timvp]

Hey timvp...does Barry avg more minutes on the road or at home?

Why do I not even have to look to know that answer?

You should have looked at the answer. He's averaging more minutes per game on the road.

You just PWNT yourself on that one.

[whottt]

You should have looked at the answer. He's averaging more minutes per game on the road.

You just PWNT yourself on that one.

I mean aside from the 20 point blowout in game 2.


He also got to play almost the entire 4th of that game...for once.


Sorry you stretched for no reason...

[samikeyp]

No no no....Brent Barry isn't scared...he just has one of those Roger Clemens deals where he only shows up for home games.

[timvp]

I mean aside from the 20 point blowout in game 2.


He also got to play almost the entire 4th of that game...for once.


Sorry you stretched for no reason...

Barry played 2:47 of garbage minutes that game.

But good attempt of the unPWNTage.