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Yea true. but you have to be surprised when the spurs took him over Big Baby. Even Sam Presti saw Big Baby raw talents
we could of gotten a Marcus Williams that wasnt drafted (i.e. C.J> Watson)
Great answer. Thanks.
Yea true. but you have to be surprised when the spurs took him over Big Baby. Even Sam Presti saw Big Baby raw talents
we could of gotten a Marcus Williams that wasnt drafted (i.e. C.J> Watson)
Because its a free country, asshole
REFS FIX GAMES, ban me.
Why do you keep comparing him to point guards when he's a small forward?
As bad as the Spurs need an infusion of youth at the wing spot, they need to give this kid a loooonng look. Just as they've done with White. , invest a year in him and see how he pans out in the NBDL. It's way to soon for them to start throwing away young players at this juncture.
Give him some time to develop and then decide. If he doens't pan out, go back into the draft and try again next June. By that time, hopefully White will have already started making some sort of contribution.
That's one of the reasons, I'm personally hoping the Spurs land Udoka. He would be a nice, experienced transitional wing player to bridge the gap between Bowen and White or whoever the supposed future wing player(s) are supposed to be.
Last edited by SenorSpur; 07-21-2007 at 04:21 PM.
YO GUYS
I was confusing Marcus Williams position because of Marcus Williams from UCONN
So i was reading a bunch of articles on Marcus Williams and some were of the other Marcus Williams of Uconn. So in the end, my mind was thinking PG all along.
I ed up like always. lol
So sorry to Kori and co. for saying PG and BENO and all that. Which makes no sense now.
BUT either way, I was looking for the reasons for drafting our Marcus Williams and what exactly do we see in him, or his future with the spurs to draft him so high when his partna' Tupac didnt get drafted.
Just wanted your takes on why we drafted him regardless of his position.
--
This is the other Marcus Williams, I put a picture of him next to my screen so that I remember him for the rest of my life. LOL
He is kinda cute ....
Stern that is.
Last edited by spurscenter; 07-21-2007 at 04:43 PM.
He is a good defender thoug..
Come on, man! Mateen Cleaves was a far better college player than Marcus Williams ever was.To me, Marcus Williams is the next coming of Mateen Cleaves for god sakes.
Hopefully Im wrong
Anyway, I wonder how long the legend of Williams being a good defender will take to die.
Pretty much how I felt about him. I definitely didn't want the Suns to take him at #29.
The other thing about Williams is, he was making mental breakdowns on defense in this year's NCAA tourney game and not even trying to recover.
dude. bonner got 3 mill.. wtf r u complaining about? williams is free.
Oden wasn't exactly destroying the summer league compe ion either. And as for drafting a big like Davis - we had just taken one in the 1st round. We need to get younger at the 2/3 spots ASAP. I don't have a problem with taking a chance on the kid for a couple of years.
If we can get Udoka and either one of White/Williams eventually develops into a contributing wing over the next couple of years, then that's all you can ask for.
true dat. u made me agree with you but Oden will for sure be ok, he has size and will develop.
hopefully M.W. Defense is great and thats his true asset.
You overstate to the point where any valid concern you may present is undercut by your own obvious bias.
Again, you can't make a case against Marcus being a detriment when the Wildcats this past season were 9-2 when he scored 20+ points.
Marcus was also one of the most consistant shooters on the team. Sure, he had his bad games, but those 4-for-14 performances weren't as commonplace as you make it seem.
As for the fans in Tucson, I'm a moderator of one of Arizona's top fan sites. I've got contacts and sources, as well as the casual fan's opinion on the topic.
Yeah, some disliked Marcus Williams the player, but it was only because they needed a scapegoat for their season. Ivan was too soft a guy, so you couldn't blame him, Mustafa was the team's highest rated PG prospect ever, so he had legions of fans before he ever stepped foot on campus, Chase is the poster-child of the future, so he's not going to catch any flack, and McClellan is quite the sympathethic figure, having lost his father, had a season ending injury, and a microfracture procedure that he attempted to come back from too early, so you can't blame him.
That left Marcus or role players.
You can dislike him, and still acknowledge that he, as an 19/20 year old was a phenominal scorer. Most freshmen/sop res don't score that many points, while shooting as good a percentage for a team that wins 20 games and makes the NCAA Tournament the two years he's on campus. Not when said player is a 50-to-80 range prospect.
As for Salim, he was never the scorer Marcus was. Much better shooter, but even he was disliked for a team or two's failings. He redeemed himself with a fantastic senior season, but he had a lot of speed bumps along the way. Like I said, Salim was dominantly a spot-up shooter, who occasionally took his player off the dribble before pulling up from mid-range. He isn't anywhere near the slasher/cutter/post player Marcus is.
If you care to rehash this further, you can search the topic and find statistics I gave backing up my claims of above.
I know how passionate college fans are. Note I said passionate, not objective. That's precisely how I'd describe your posts on the topic.
Marcus has his flaws. But if a coach can get through, get him to keep his head up when things aren't going well for him, then he could be a value to a team that takes the time to develop his talent.
Stephen Jackson was an incredably flawed talent who finally got "it" here in San Antonio. I'd like to see Marcus get that same treatment. Williams isn't near the headcase Jackson was/is, so any investment could potentially yield a quicker, if not greater return.
i agree
Pre-emptive...
Also...
Like I said, it's fine to cast some blame. And I completely understanding not liking a player, but let's not allow personal bias to skew the facts.
It was a total and complete meltdown on Arizona's part. While Marcus' ever-faltering shot, which the percentage don't bear out, by the way, played a part, I'm sick of hearing he's the lone reason for the Wildcats dismal play down the stretch. He wasn't even the biggest reason.
What more can a sop re player do but score 17 ppg, on better than 50% shooting when his senior teammates won't pull their own heads out of their asses to help right the wrongs...
I've seen you trot out this statistic a few times in the threads about Marcus, and it is certainly a valid point. However, how many of these 9 wins were against quality opponents? These statistics can be very self serving in the college game because many top programs begin non conference schedules against teams that are incredibly overmatched. This isn't to say that Marcus played horrifically all season and I know there were games where his offensive game pushed UA to the win, but I think the 9-2 stat that you've been trotting out is a bit misleading. Just taking a quick glance at the games Arizona won where Marcus scored above 20 you see names like New Mexico State, Illinois (on 6-15 shooting), San Diego State, Cal twice, and Stanford. These are games that Arizona absolutely SHOULD be winning. The reason these games were won is not because Marcus played so well offensively, but because, as a team, Arizona was far far superior this season. To give Marcus credit for this is a misappropriation, and those listed serve as 7 of those 9 wins you mention.
Goazcats? pointguardu? I don't frequent the sites as I live on campus and feel that I get a fairly solid impression of the Arizona fanbase without going online, but it'd be cool to see you over there too.
I think calling him a phenominal scorer is a bit over the top. He was certainly an above average scorer, but he wasn't even the most talented scorer on his own team this year. And just because someone performs at a level higher than where he was slated recruiting wise doesn't make him phenominal. Marcus was a nice surprise as a recruit considering his ranking coming in, but lets not overstate how important that is to his worth now.
If you think I'm passionate and biased about this particular topic, you're right. I hate that the last game I got to root for my school my senior year of college will be remembered in my mind as Marcus and the rest of the guys not playing team defense, getting beat by their less talented man and then not even trying to recover, not fighting for rebounds, and playing individual basketball on the offensive end. I don't blame this all on Marcus, but he looked less upset and seemed to give less effort in that game than any of the players on the floor.
If you'd like a more objective argument then that's fine. I've got plenty of numbers I can show that would prove my point. How about 29% from college 3 point range this season? The 1.1-1 assist to turnover ratio when he is supposed to be more than capable of solid point guard play when needed? 1 rebound in the first round of the NCAA tourney when he was taller than his man in every matchup he had?
You've said that I overstate how often Marcus had the "4 of 14" type games, so lets look at some of the most important games of the season since I really don't think how Marcus played against the Northern Arizona, Samford, New Mexico, and Houston's of the world have much relevance to how he will perform in the NBA.
UCLA 7-17
UNC 2-4, but he got hurt so I don't thihnk it's fair to talk to much about this one
Oregon during the Pac 10 Tourney 6-20
@ Stanford in a game that some poeple said we needed to assure a tourney birth 6-16
Wazzu 4-11
@USC 7-17
@Wazzu 8-19
@Oregon 6-15
Purdue 4-10
These were most of the biggest games the team played this year, so I apologize if it sticks out in my mind that these are the games where Marcus mailed it in. It's easy to pull your averages back up against clearly inferior opponents, so I tend to put less weight in NCAA averages. My prevailing feelings about Marcus is based on issues you don't need a stat sheet to see: poor shooting mechanics, quitting on plays, not bringing it in big games, not being coachable, and the inability to play team ball.
And I know that this argument is not particularly germane to the Williams in the NBA discussion we're having, but saying that Marcus is a better scorer than Salim is crazy. When we needed a bucket, we gave the ball to Salim and he would get us the bucket. You can talk about all the different kinds of ways Marcus can score that Salim didn't use, but when it comes down to it Marcus isn't a guy you can give the ball to and ask for 2 points in a tough spot.
Hopefully these arguments don't come off as hostile in any way, I'm just genuinely enjoying having this argument with another Cats fan.
Last edited by jdaveah; 07-21-2007 at 09:23 PM.
Two 41% shooting and another 42%. Those aren't that terrible. I could trot out some stats that show several top players having consistant nights like that.
That leaves about 5/6 "bad" performances. Like I said, I'll give them to you. I'll also give you that some of them came in some big games, like the Pac-10 Tourney game vs. Oregon. Again, I've never contested that Marcus was a player without much to work on. I've said he unfairly gets painted as the lone reason for a great team's failings. Like I said, I may not have been at the games, but I've been a statistician for years, and understand how to breakdown video, and generally deem Marcus to be one of the few players who cared about winning or losing. He wasn't selfish, as evidensed by the 12-1 start. When the ship started to sink, he was one of the few who attempted to do anything about it.
Yes, sometimes he forced shots, but it was he or someone else. Chase wasn't the consistant force many remember him to be, Shakur was well into his "deer in headlights" phase, Ivan couldn't remember how to assert himself, McClellan was hit or miss in even playing, Wise was a freshman, Hill was raw on offense, and nobody else really mattered on offense.
Again, I've never been a "Marcus" guy. But for a bottom-100 prospect to come in and put up the numbers he did as a freshman and sop re is very impressive. Not many can waltz on to campus and as a starter put up 16/17 ppg, 5/6 rebounds as a wing-forward.
Again, we don't necessarily disagree. Only agree to varying extents.
BTW, what were the lines of every other Wildcat in those games you listed for Marcus?
Given that several were blowouts, I'm guessing pretty poor.
I'd also venture to guess that many of the shots missed were threes. Open threes. His jumper was a bit streaky, but was fairly consistant, and was money when on.
I can't criticize you for being upset with Marcus for leaving Tucson last summer, messing with his shot, then returning with a goofed up form that affected his distance shooting percentages. That's a valid critique and one I share. But we need to remember he was a sop re, and share some of the blame for the much more experienced seniors who've failed Arizona two year's straight. As for the assist/turnover ratio, that's fair, but how many more assists could he have had if a teammate or two were able to hit a jumper or a three? Chase went cold, McClellan was out, and nobody else was a consistant threat.
I've never blamed the 200 pound SG for having a poor rebounding game. He's not a forward, not a rebounding forward anyways, and even if taller, he's so slight of frame that he's easily nudged out of position buy someone with a few more pounds and fundamentals of boxing out.
As for Salim, I'm talking about scorer as an all-around role, not how many points one puts up. If you look back at Arenas' teams, he never stood out statistically, but you knew if he was made the focal point, he'd average 20-per. I got that same feeling with Marcus. Salim was the focal point and never averaged 20.
BTW, since that 2001 team, Salim is by far my favorite Wildcat. I'm a fan of good shooting players. Always have been. Some like dunks. Some like slashers. I like jumpers. So, for me to be saying this of Marcus means something.
Maybe I'm a bit too touchy with the Marcus criticism. A lot of people hated watching Florida play. I loved them. They always hustled. They did whatever it took. Sometimes they had some rough shooting spells, but because they understood shooting wasn't the only way to win, they overcame. At times this year I got the sense that Marcus was the only player on offense who gave a damn. Hill started to show some fire, but wasn't developed enough to be the force he wished to be. Maybe Marcus didn't give a damn late in the loss to Purdue. He probably had the NBA on his mind, so for that, I don't blame you for holding a grudge.
I'm just as disgusted with Arizona's last two seasons as the next fan, but I won't lay blame for it solely on one player when nobody around him stepped up.
In all, I can't be mad at a 6-7, 200 pound SG for playing two seasons out of position at PF, learning the ins and outs on the fly for a team who apsires to a top-10 team season after season. He was asked a lot, in my opinion, maybe more than he could give consistantly. Very few others have been as poorly utilized by Olson, though it was certainly out of need. Still, if he struggles down low against UCLA and Staford, I don't blame him. They have great defensive frontlines.
BTW, I don't know what is with us Arizona fans, but we just can't write short posts when in engaged in discussion
As for moderator, I'll PM ya with the info...
PWNED.
Next.
Dayum, I'm still getting over the fact that a supposed Spurs fan just dissed Sean Elliott...
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