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but being ranked 10th best PG ever makes him overrated
I guess it's tough for a Seattle Sonic to get some media exposure. Unless of course he's got Bruce Bowen's foot planted in his back.
Last edited by monosylab1k; 08-09-2007 at 11:30 AM.
but being ranked 10th best PG ever makes him overrated
In his prime, Mark Price was Nash before Nash. His prime didn't last very long though.
Mark Price (along with Steve Kerr) should be considered on the all-time great shooter's list, but as a floor general with these other PGs, he comes up short. This may have been due to MJ and their inability to get past the Bulls when it counted.
then... it makes sense....
in his 3-4 year prime, Price was a great floor general. he just got hurt too much.
Bob Hurley anyone?
Scott Skiles=g.o.a.t.
John Paxson FTW
Terrell Brandon was no top 10-er, but he popped into my mind for whatever reason. he was solid for a few years.
I agree with all of you about the greatness of Jerry West and Pete Maravich...but neither of them were PG's.
My hatred for GP keeps him out of my top 10. Scru it...it's MY list.
1. Magic Johnson
2. Isiah Thomas
3. John Stockton
4. Bob Cousy
5. Nate Archibald
6. Jason Kidd
7. Gary Payton
8. Steve Nash
9. Kevin Johnson
10. Lenny Wilkens
Before anyone gets pissy with me about the inclusion of Kevin Johnson, know that he has higher career averages at 18 ppg, 9 apg, 49% FG than does Wilkens, Nash, Payton and is better in PPG and FG% than Kidd, and is 0.1 assists behind Kidd for a career average.
Remember that KJ played just five seasons before needing knee surgery, something that wasn't as easy to come back from then as it is today. Note that before the surgery, KJ averaged 21 ppg, 11 apg, 51% FG for four seasons, being named, despite playing in an era of great PGs like Magic, Stockton, Payton and even Mark Price and Tim Hardaway for a time, to All-NBA third team twice, and All-NBA second team once.
Even after his first knee surgery (and he had two more, BTW), KJ averaged 17 ppg, 8 apg, 49% FG.
Beyond his rookie season, a Kevin Johnson led team never failed to make the playoffs, advancing to the Western Conference Finals, defeating the Los Angeles Lakers along the way, in 1989-90 and to the NBA Finals in 92-93.
His assist/turnover ratio of 2.97/1 is higher than Wilkens (2.19/1), Payton (2.95/1), Kidd (2.84/1), *Archibald (2.60/1), Thomas (2.46/1) and Magic (2.89/1).
Note, one cannot figure a A/TO ratio for Cousy, nor a completely accurate one for Archibald, as before 1977-78, turnovers were not tracked statistically. For Archibald, I took his post 77-78 turnovers, added them, then divided by said number of years to come up with an averaged figure of 187 TOs per season, then in his seven prior seasons with no statistical figures for turnovers, I used said average, which, when added with the known turnover figures and divided by his total years played, gave me the ratio above.
There are plenty of PGs who deserve to be on the list. Cheeks is a great choice as well.
But few PGs were as dangerous, even after injury, as KJ was, and fewer still when he was healthy.
Chick Hearn, legendary Lakers broadcaster once said, "Magic and KJ, two of the greatest PGs to ever play this game."
That's high praise, and something completely backed up by the stats.
21-11-50% pre-injury, 17-8-49% post-injury.
As I said, that 17-8-49% is better than half the guards career averages on this list.
I believe he was officially listed at PG. He was the primary ballhandler for his teams. He just happened to have a shoot first, second and last mentality.
That is some impressive number crunching JMark...
they ought not. Kevin Johnson was absolute greatness. His top 10 status might be debatable but they guy deserves mention. In his prime he was awesome and played with incredible heart.
Yeah. It's so damn hard to say just how good he, the Hardaways and very good, nearly great players like Mark Price would have been if injuries hadn't stripped them of seasons in their prime, or lengthy careers.
I've always maintained, even in the face of Nash's two MVPs, but KJ was the best PG to ever play for the Suns. And yes, I'm including Kidd as well.
He could score whenever he wanted. Something Kidd couldn't do and something Nash hates to do. He could dominate a game with just his passing, because opponants were always in limbo because of his ability to shoot and score. He had one of the quickest first steps, and, as shown by the A/TO ratio, was efficient year after year with running an offense.
Kidd could never shoot, never score, and never lead because of it the way KJ could/did. The Kidd-led Suns never won a playoff series. The only playoff series won by Phoenix during Kidd's tenure was when Kidd was out with a broken ankle in 2000, and KJ came out of retirement to lead the Suns in a 3-1 defeat of the Duncan-less Spurs. Kidd returned for the Lakers series, and Phoenix was promtly offed 4-1.
KJ's pre-injury prime was as good as anyone's playing at the time, save for maybe Magic. He had a few seasons were he was scoring 23 ppg, and dishing out 11/12 apg while shooting over 50% from the field. Those are crazy numbers to wrap you mind around for a 6-1, 175 pound PG.
Kevin Johnson + Jason Kidd + Steve Nash = 0 ring
TP + Avery Johnson = 4 rings
(THANX TD!!)
1. Stockton
2. Magic
3. Isiah
4. Robertson
5. Cousy
6. Kidd
7. Frazier
8. Archibald
9. Mark Jackson
10. Gary Payton
Guys like Hardaway (tim) and KJ just missed the top ten for me.
The thing about these lists is where do you put a guy like Cousy, who was absolutely the in' balls when he played, but probably would be a scrub at best in today's NBA?
So, in no particular order, my top 8:
Magic
Isiah
Oscar
Payton
Stockton
Kidd
Cousy
Tiny
After that, I don't think you can reach a consensus.
Those of you who think Oscar Robertson wasn't a point guard: do you understand he was the NBA's all-time assist leader until Magic broke his record?
Very true. If only Phoenix had two #1 overall and future Hall of Fame pivots down low for them, maybe they'd have four rings as well.
Don't underestimate the amount of luck you Spurs have had in helping to construct these two teams. A ton of great scouting and building has gone on around those two, but netting two #1 overall picks in two years where two legit All-timer type 7-footers were entered is an unbelievable twist of fate.
Congrats for winning. You still have to win them, and San Antonio has, but looking back, the luck to land them goes farther than the genius to surround them.
Yes, and there were a few years where Wilt was top-3 in apg for a season as well. Didn't make him anymore of a PG.
I understand your point, but most every one agrees that he was a wing, not a PG.
Just playing devil's advocate here, since I've included him on my list.
By your definition then Lebron James is the Cavs point guard, too.
Robertson was a great passer on a team of guys that could score and was the guy the defense focused on. That means a lot of assists. It doesn't automatically make him a point guard, though. The Lakers actually put Magic out there in the point guard position. If they'd put him in as a power forward, he'd still have the same number of assists.
There's nothing wrong with having him on the list, but the stat doesn't define the position.
Most everyone? Sure would like to know who that is.
So he wasn't a point guard, and yet when he got traded to the Bucks with Alcindor, they suddenly made him one? Or are you going to say he wasn't the Bucks' point guard, either?
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