Research Confirmation: 10 Best Bigmen of All-Time

[spurster]

From SolidD's list, this is the number of times these players have been 1st or 2nd Team All-NBA.

Kareem 15
Karl Malone 14
Pet 11
Barkley 10
Shaq 10
Wilt 10
Russell 10
Hakeem 9
Moses Malone 8
Ewing 7
Mikan 6
Elvin Hayes 6
David Robinson 6
Willis Reed 5
Hawkins 1
McHale 1
Gilmore 0
Thurmon 0

I thought this would be an interesting comparison. In particular, McHale only comes up once. I thought he would be more.

[SpursFanInAustin]

I would like to also mention, that I'm factoring a considerable gap between #4 and #5. Personally, I think the top 4 are at a level on their own, because of what they have accomplished in their careers.

I have to disagree that Hakeem doesn't belong on that list of the top 4 centers as a level on their own. Hakeem was on another planet during the 94 and 95 playoffs with the Rockets, and like Whottt mentioned, he won matchups with the elite centers like Ewing, DRob, and Shaq in the playoffs. Hakeem's numbers vs the Spurs were unbelievable. He had three 40 pt games in the series, and 39 pts 18 boards 6 blocks in the clinching game 6.

[Solid D]

Interesting listings, spurster. Artis Gilmore and Connie Hawkins did some of their amazing things in the ABA...Artis with the Kentucky Colonels. Hawkins dominated and won a championship with the Pittsburgh Pipers. I don't think anyone has a higher FG% (career) than the A-Train. He was very strong player also. A player (Adrian Dantley, as I remember it) once broke their hand/wrist trying to take a rebound out of A-Train's vice-grip.

That's surprising about Thurmond. Nate played in the shadow of Wilt for the Warriors, early in his career, so that's somewhat understandable. Nate was pretty dominant though. He had a couple of seasons there in the 60s where he averaged over 20 ppg and 20 rpg.

I thought of a couple of others for the Honorable Mention list:

Bob Lanier
Dave Cowens
Bill Walton

and for you ABA lovers,
Mel Daniels
George McGinnis
Dan Issel (ABA and NBA)

[Solid D]

One more thing about Nate Thurmond. Although he wasn't "All-NBA", check out these highlights!!!

www.hoophall.com/halloffamers/Thurmond.htm

* NBA All-Rookie Team (1964)
* NBA All-Defensive First Team (1969, 1971)
* NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1972-74)
* Seven-time NBA All-Star (1965-69, 1970, 1973, 1974)
* Scored 14,437 points (15.0 ppg) in 964 games
* Grabbed 14,464 rebounds (15.0) in 964 games, seventh best in history
*Upon enshrinement, his 14,464 boards were fourth best in history

* Had eight seasons with 1,000 or more rebounds (1965-69, 1971-73), including a career-best 22.0 rpg in 1968
* Holds the NBA record for most rebounds in one quarter (18 vs. Baltimore on Feb. 28, 1965)
* Warriors leading rebounder (12,771)
* Grabbed a career-high 42 rebounds against Detroit (Nov. 9, 1965), making him one of only four players in history (Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell, Jerry Lucas) to achieve that feat

* First player to record a quadruple-double (1974) with 22 points, 14 rebounds, 13 assists and 12 blocked shots in an overtime victory against the Atlanta Hawks

* NBA 50th Anniversary All-Time Team (1996)

[Spurminator]

Hakeem > Shaq.

Thus concludes my contribution to this article.

[spursfaninla]

Look, not giving shaq his due because he had Kobe is weak.

Besides Hakeem, none of the premiere bigmen did it alone; Kareem had Magic, Wilt didn't win until he took fewer shots, not more, and Russell had a flood of hof players at his side.

Shaq is just like any of those top 5 players; multiple rings, main or key reason for the rings.

end of talk.

I don't like shaq, and I don't like how he scores/ed (pwer game, err, offensive foul), but he was the most important component to the Lakers 3 les.

[Polandprzem]

As for centers

Bill
Wilt
A-J
George (yes Mikan train his talent in nowdays, he dominated realy bad 7 championships & retirment in age of 29)
Moses
Hakeem
D-Rob
Shaq

Pf

Larry (If he's a big man)
Karl
Pet
Sir charles
Kevin

Mention: Reed, Thurmond,Walton, Lanier,

[Whottt]

Solid D, I knew Elgin Baylor was classified more as SF...but he averaged over 13 boards for his career and once pulled down as many as 19pg for a season...Rebounding like that is strictly the domain of the bigmen...So he belongs in the discussion IMO..at least as much as Barkley who wasn't much bigger.

E20, saying the only reason Wilt scored more than anyone is because of a move he had, is like saying the only reason the Yankees have won the most WS is because they have had more talent than any other team...

...doesn't change the facts that they were the best.

To paraphrase the immortal words of the Flo...

That Jordan could have averaged 50 a game is an opinion...that Wilt did it is a FACT.
That others have beaten Jordan's best scoring average is a FACT.
That no one else has ever even averaged 40ppg or more in a season, besides Wilt, is a FACT.

Yao Ming is taller than a lot of guys playing in his era...so was Manute Bol, so was George Mhuersean, so was George Mikan...I didn't/don't see them averaging 50 a game.

And I gurantee you that Jordan took more shots than Wilt did to score his points.

Wilt's best assist season is better than Jordans', inspite of Jordan having the responsibility of being a ball distributor.

Jordan barely averaged 1 more APG for his career than Wilt..so your ball hog theory doesn't hold a lot of water.

Wilt ing>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jordan or anyone else.

[Whottt]

You know, in doing some research on this subject I realized something that has changed...and seeing as how it has been the source my chapped ass in most center arguments, I am incredibly happy to announce that we can now retire one argument that was worn incredibly thin on me....

That Hakeem did it all by himself on the first le...now this opinion has long held little water with me due to the fact that the Rockets were the greatest 3 point shooting team in history that year...they made more 3 pointers than any team in history...and with names like Cassell, Horry and Elie...Most Spurfans had no doubts about the clutchness of those players even if they did lack all NBA credentials...

Now while Otis Thorpe was on that team...and was a former All Star PF, a former 20-10 player...the key component in the Drexler trade...a player who was traded for what turned out to be the #1 pick in the entire draft later in his career...

There was one thing no one could argue against in giving Hakeem credit...He, unlike every NBA champion in NBA history, excepting the 98-99 Spurs..

Had no players, that ever had been, before or since, an All Star Caliber Guard....

That argument can now be ing retired so eat RocketFan because the truth has been revealed...the 93-94 Rockets did in fact have an All Star Caliber guard...one who most Spurfans have argued was AS Caliber for many years...

His name is Sam Cassell..and for those who don't remember him...he was the guard who butt ed us for 30 points off the bench the following year in the WCF game 6!...

So now we can say...Hakeem...like every other Champion except your 98-99, 02-03 Spurs and the current Champion Pistons...had a player that either was or would be an AS Guard...

And unless AJ pulls a huge bunny out of his ass this season...Or Antonio Daniels figures out what position he actually is...The 98-99 Spurs are likely to be the only team in history to win an NBA le without having a single guard who would ever play in the All Star game...

Notice I do not count the 02-03 Spurs... or the 03-04 Pistons...for good reason...Tony Parker and or Manu will be an AS before their careers are over...and Rip Hamilton, Chauncey Billups or Tashaun Prince will probably make one before their careers are over...and if not...Billups was the freaking playoff MVP...which beats out AS recognition...and Parker and Manu are already AS caliber...even if they don't get voted on...

But there wasn't an AS caliber guard on that 98-99 Spurs team(Sorry TimVP).....making them unique in NBA history...

And while Duncan and DRob had each other..and Elliot playing on one kidney...

They remain the only twin tower combo to win a NBA le...

Thurmond failed to do it with Wilt...Hakeem failed to do it with Sampson...and I'd argue that he failed to do it with Barkley as well since Barkley tends gets a lot of run in top 10 bigs of all time arguments, infact some idiots rate both Barkley and Hakeem over Drob in top 10 big arguments.....yet are left holding their asses when asked to explain how that combo failed to win an NBA le.......ditto Shaq and Malone.

Duncan N Robinson...best combo of all time, only tower team to win an NBA le..only ones to do it without a true AS caliber guard......their only crime was playing in the NBA's smallest market and having a large PCT of their own fans who didn't recognize their greatness.... But go ahead keep sticking guys like Moses Malone ahead of them....he who played with Dr J, Maurice Cheeks, Charles Barkley...Bob McAdoo all on the same team..and still failed to win a le.

[IcemanCometh]

thats nice whott, timvp was asking for a consensus top 10, not a who does what does whott think about this list top 10. so shut the **** up already, we got your opinion.

[Whottt]

That's reeeallly nice Ice...but TimVP also said this:

discuss

So stop trying to hijack this thread and make it about me or Raffy Palmeiro....it's impossible to have a discussion without opinions...even stupid ones, being shared.

[IcemanCometh]

shut the **** up donny

[E20]

If Wilt played in this era with the Ming's and the Shaq's and the Duncan's he'd get his balls handed down to him. It's impossible to compare two players from two completely different times. Basketball has evolved from that time, very differnt styles of play, it went from being fundamentally sound to you have to be athletic to survive in the league. Jordan and Wilt play competley different postions you can't compare, but I know for a fact that Jordan was better than Robertson, Cousy etc. or more athletic. And about Wilt being a ball hog I just made that up. LOL.

[sportcamper1]

1. Wilt Chamberlain (The greatest athlete ever to play center)

2. Lew Alcindor/ Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

3. Bill Russell

4. Hakeem Olajuwon

5. George Mikan

6. Shaq

7. David Robinson

8. Patrick Ewing

9. Karl Malone

10. Magic Johnson (A 6’ 10” point guard that was one heck of a back up center)

[Brodels]

You said:

If Wilt played in this era with the Ming's and the Shaq's and the Duncan's he'd get his balls handed down to him.

but followed it by claiming:

It's impossible to compare two players from two completely different times.

If you can't compare players from different eras, how can you know that Wilt wouldn't be successful in today's game? Fact is, you can't.

Basketball has evolved from that time, very differnt styles of play, it went from being fundamentally sound to you have to be athletic to survive in the league.

Basketball smarts and skill still count for a lot. Duncan isn't very athletic for a big. Peja isn't very athletic. Vlade isn't much of an athlete. Most of the other best players in the league have some combination of basketball smarts and athleticism. If survival in the league depended on athleticism, Keon Clark would be a superstar.

Jordan and Wilt play competley different postions you can't compare, but I know for a fact that Jordan was better than Robertson, Cousy etc. or more athletic.

There you go again. You claimed that it's impossible to compare players from different eras, but you "know for a fact" that Jordan was better than Cousy. That's impossible. They never played against each other or against the same compe ion. Did you even see Cousy play?

And about Wilt being a ball hog I just made that up.

No question about that.

[spursfaninla]

I just read an article about Wilt that discussed some interesting facts that dispute what I thought to be a fundamental truth differentiating todays athelete from the 60's and 70's; conditioning and athleticism.

It is said that diet and training today are superior than in the past,and with modern atheletes achieving greater speed and strength in general that seems fundamentally true.

Today's NBA athelet's body is certainly more muscular, that is undenyable.

However,

wilt interview

States that Wilt could bench press 500 pounds when he was in his late 40's!!! When he was in his prime he had a 52 inch vert!! These were obverved.

Further, the height difference evidently is somewhat abated by the fact that in "the day" they were measured barefoot, whereas todays atheletes are often measured in shoes.

Back to Wilt's physical gifts; If that is not strong and athletic, I don't know what is. I doubt anyone not named Drob could jump with him, and I doubt even Shaq benches that much.

I'm wondering if perhaps the average NBA player is athletically better than the past, but the HOF level players' natural talent might bring them fairly close to the level of the modern best, making it a wash.

[E20]

I know you can't compare, but according to NBA Live 2004 computer vs computer, I put Jordan vs other guards and Jordan won.
But the thing is you can't compare them, but by far Jordan is much more atheltic that's what I mean. Let's just say Duncan is more atheltic than wilt. Wilt is skin and bones. If you want to say Wilt was the best center of his era then ya your right.

[E20]

I know you can't compare them, but Jordan can beat them that's not comparing them that's Jordan just beating them.

[Brodels]

I know you can't compare them, but Jordan can beat them that's not comparing them that's Jordan just beating them.

That's simply an opinion. It may or may not be true. Just because Jordan is good in your video game doesn't mean he's the best in reality.

If you want to evaluate players, forget about athleticism. Examine how much they dominated against the other top players in their respective eras.

[Brodels]

Let's just say Duncan is more atheltic than wilt. Wilt is skin and bones. If you want to say Wilt was the best center of his era then ya your right.

I'm not ready to concede that Duncan is more athletic than Wilt. Duncan isn't among the most athletic big men in the game today. Wilt was an athletic freak. Wilt was the best center of his era, and he very likely would be able to compete today because athleticism and basketball smarts allow you to succeed against any kind of compe ion.

[E20]

You couldn't compare Jordan with anybody else 1 on 1. The name of the research article should be Best Bigmen in there era or something like that.

[E20]

Can sombody find a picture of Chamberlin. The only game I've seen him play is 1973 Knicks Vs Lakers Finals and he looked pretty skinny to me.

[Brodels]

You couldn't compare Jordan with anybody else 1 on 1.

You can compare him with other 1990s shooting guards though. You can certainly compare him with the players he competed against year after year.

Jordan was great, but was he better than Wilt? We really can't know that.

[E20]

The thing is you can't compare Center Vs PG/SG. The one scenario in my opnion is if on a game of 1 on 1 if the center gets takeout then he wins, if the guard gets the ball then he wins.

[E20]

Jordan was a rookie back then, I'm referring to his prime. They're still a lot of people who couldn't hang with Jordan in his rookie years anyway.