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How many years of data will the report reference?
No, you godforsaken idiot, that isn't my argument.
Can you quote me where I said the highest rate was in 1981? No, you can't because I didn't say that.
See what you quoted... I said "how many years of data do they have..."
I say 26 years, you say 16.
I'd make a smart-ass quip about taking your "online dignity," but that has been gone for longer than I can remember.
How many years of data will the report reference?
That's my thought on what we will find out when the report is released.
Who cares about how many years of data they have? My point is that the rate was higher in 06 and the total number was higher in 91....
You did.
And no the number of 102 was highest in 1991 - it says that in the article.
..however you misunderstood my post, the point still stands....
Yes. You can't distinguish two separate grafs and the information in between.
The problem you're having, Dan, is that you seem to believe I'm saying the information presented (which is the information you're presenting) is somehow wrong.
For the sake of this argument alone, I don't give a about that information.
My problem is that you continually take the media to task for problems that are simply in your own mind.
The rates are different because there were different amount of active duty Army personnel. (426K in 2006, 472K in 1991). Quite simply, 102 deaths into 472,000 is a lower ratio than 99 deaths into 426,000.
http://siadapp.dmdc.osd.mil/personne...ARY/Miltop.htm
But again, you're second post in this thread was a slam against (the incorrect outlet, BTW) the math skills of an AP reporter. You said "D'oh...1991-2006=16, not 26." I tried to show you where the start of a new graf references different information being presented. It's outlined in the graf by talking about a simple number versus a ratio.
So, yes, when you continually saddle mistakes against the media which aren't their mistakes to begin with, I will continually take your brittle mind apart and attempt to squash your own biases towards a media which is not responsible for every single fallacy you think they make.
Never in my life have I wanted the left and right wings of SpursTalk to come together moreso than right now in a united effort to put Dan in his place.
Yeah, people are gonna 'rise up' at 2:40 a.m. to defend such a silly point...the le of the article should read'...highest number since 1991'. Who really cares if they've only been collecting the data for 26 years...
...when the le of a article reads, worst hurricane in 26 years, you'd expect for the comparison point to be the last worst hurricane, not since record-keeping began....but keep defending the writers poor choice of reference point....
you guys are COMPLETELY missing the point by focusing on the wording of a headline. The point is that troop morale is at an all time low and troops are KILLING themselves. It is true we have significantly reduced the NUMBER of troops in our forces, so you can't compare total numbers of suicides, just the RATE. You're arguing about something so stupid and insignificant and ignoring the true tragedy of the article.
I would agree if they cited the whole report. Cherry picking information to share gives the reader a biased view, unless they are like me. Willing to fact check.
the number 102 was likely a lower rate when looking at suicides per 100,000. 1991 was the beginning of the drawdown of the military forces. Getting pink slips for those who only knew military life could have been a factor too!
And reporters make mistakes all the time. Have to verify stories and not blindly believe them like a lemming.
I'm not saying believe every single word they say (and I'm a reporter). But when the explanation to Dan's misconception is so blatantly obvious, it's frustrating to continue a conversation with him.
I'm trying to find the report myself.Date: 08/16/2007 04:19 PM
BC-Army Suicides-Summary Box/78
Summary Box: Suicide rate in Army rising
By The Associated Press
THE NUMBERS: Ninety-nine U.S. soldiers killed themselves last year, the highest rate of suicide in the Army in 26 years of record-keeping. There were 948 attempted suicides.
ON DUTY: Nearly a third of the soldiers who committed suicide did so while serving in Iraq or Afghanistan.
THE MOTIVATION: Failed personal relationships, legal and financial problems and job stress were factors.
And here's the updated story:
Date: 08/16/2007 03:37 PM
BC-Army Suicides,4th Ld-Writethru/725
Eds: UPDATES in 3rd graf that Army now says toll was 87 sted 88 in 2005.
With 99 suicides by soldiers in 2006, Army rate hits 26-year high
By PAULINE JELINEK
Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON (AP) _ Ninety-nine U.S. soldiers killed themselves last year, the highest rate of suicide in the Army in 26 years of record-keeping.
Nearly a third of the soldiers who committed suicide did so while serving in Iraq or Afghanistan, according to a report released Thursday. Iraq accounted for most of those _ with 27 of the suicides coming from that conflict and three from Afghanistan. Also, there were 948 attempted suicides, officials said, adding that they didn't have a comparison for previous years.
The report said the 99 confirmed suicides among active duty soldiers compares with 87 in 2005 and is the highest number since 102 were reported in 1991, the year of the Persian Gulf War, when there were more soldiers on active duty.
Investigations are still pending on two other deaths.
In a half million-person Army, last year's suicide toll translates to a rate of 17.3 per 100,000, the highest since the Army started counting in 1980, officials said. The rate has fluctuated over those years, with the low being 9.1 per 100,000 in 2001.
Failed personal relationships, legal and financial problems and the stress of their jobs were factors motivating the soldiers to commit suicide, according to the report. It also found a significant relationship between suicide attempts and the number of days deployed in Iraq, Afghanistan or nearby countries where troops were participating in the war effort.
There was "limited evidence" to back the su ion that repeated deployments are putting more people at risk for suicide, the report said. With the Army stretched thin by years of fighting the two wars, the Pentagon has had to extend normal tours of duty this year to 15 months from 12 and has sent some troops back to the wars several times.
Officials found no direct link between suicide and deployments or exposure to combat except in how they affect a soldier's marriage or other close relationships, Col. Elspeth Ritchie, psychiatry consultant to the Army surgeon general, said in a Pentagon press conference.
"Unfortunately, suicide is very often a compulsive act," she said, and the fact that soldiers are armed can make it harder to prevent.
"Very often a young soldier gets a 'Dear John' or 'Dear Jane' e-mail and then takes his weapon and shoots himself," she said.
Preliminary numbers for the first half of 2007 indicate the number of suicides could decline across the service but increase among troops serving in the wars, officials said.
The increases for 2006 came as Army officials worked to set up a number of new programs and strengthen old ones for providing mental health care to a force strained by the longer-than-expected conflict in Iraq and the global counterterrorism war entering its sixth year.
In a flurry of studies in recent months, officials found a system that might have been adequate for a peacetime military has been overwhelmed by troops coming home from war.
Some troop surveys in Iraq have shown that 20 percent of Army soldiers have signs and symptoms of post-traumatic stress, which can cause flashbacks of traumatic combat experiences and other severe reactions. About 35 percent of soldiers are seeking some kind of mental health treatment a year after returning home under a program that screens returning troops for physical and mental health problems, officials have said.
The Army has sent medical teams annually to the battlefront in Iraq to survey troops, health care providers and chaplains about health, morale and other issues. It has revised training programs, bolstered suicide prevention, is adding some 25 percent more psychiatrists and other mental health professionals to its staff, and is in the midst of an extensive program to teach all soldiers how to recognize mental health problems in themselves and their comrades.
The Army also has been working to stem the stigma associated with getting therapy for mental problems, after officials found that troops are avoiding counseling out of fear it could harm their careers.
Dan is owned once again.
Just like with that stupid post about the Virginia Tech shooting.
Oh well . . .
I see part of the confusion. 26 years of RECORD KEEPING!
Curious... Have you seen the Movie about Murrow? "Good Night, and Good Luck?" I bought the DVD and it is a very good movie. I assume you know that Murrow had a close friend who commited suicide.
IMDB link Good Night, and Good Luck
wiki link Good Night, and Good luck
Jesus Christ, 2 pages on details?! Who gives a !
Is the military suicide rate its highest in 26 years?
Is that any ing surprise seeing as the military is currently in a war? (of sorts...Mission Accomplished....o, wait). No.
The story is then.....a rise in military suicide most likely due to the action seen in Iraq and Afghanistan.
You know, based on all this valuable info, I'm willing to bet suicide rates go way up when someone files for bankruptcy. We should totally commission a reporter to tell us that. Yeah.
Those of us who care about the truth do.
Looks that way.
Agreed. The article is unimportant to begin with.
What is discuraging to me is the 2006 rates are similar to the national average with the normal rates being much lower, yet that fact is ignored. It was brought up that older people have a much higher rate, but there are less 80+ people than children who do not commit suicide! I'd bet age by age, the nominal military suicide rate is far lower than the US population.
Yes, the stress of deployment is the key factor of the increased rates. Away from family, financial changes, Dear John letters, etc. Note the horrors of war were dismissed over these other factors. Long term deployment is the root problem.
Last edited by Wild Cobra; 08-17-2007 at 12:12 PM. Reason: fixed quote
The point is Dan uses misleading tactics when starting some of his threads.
By the way, the press uses them all the time (misleading tactics to sell their papers/magazines/hits on the net).
There was hardly a time when a story with which I was fully acquianted, was correctly represnted in the press.
Much like the English tabloids. Headline six inchs high
and a small paragraph of story.
In Argentina you can't even trust the so-called respectable newpapers. Half of what they print in partially true and misleading, or not true at all.
....and there was a time when most political readers couldn't tell the difference...nor could they tell when wing-nut radio used identicle tactics...and people said forum's like these were useless...
Or more accurately, is a rise in military suicides most likely due to repeated action in Iraq and afghanistan....The story is then.....a rise in military suicide most likely due to the action seen in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Suicides in Iraq; It's Worse Than You Thought
By Gary Ater
The American Chronicle
Sunday 19 August 2007
TruthoutMany of you have seen the headlines regarding the military suicides that have reached the highest level in 26 years. There were 99 confirmed Army suicides in 2006 (2 additional deaths are pending investigations), up from 88 in 2005 and the highest since 1991 during the Persian Gulf War. The rate of suicides grew in 5 years from a low of 9.1 per 100,000 soldiers in 2001 to the 2006 rate of 19.4 per 100,000. (The suicide rate for the general population is 11 per 100,000.) Preliminary figures indicate that the number of suicides for troops that have served in either Afghanistan or Iraq will also increase for 2007.
What you did not read in the headlines is the explanation for the major increases nor the numbers of those that attempted suicide but were somehow saved at the last moment. The other items that were left out of the articles from the Pentagon were how many suicides were committed after the soldiers were back from active duty in the Middle East and how many women serving in Iraq or Afghanistan committed suicide.
For the last item, the Pentagon did not give a number for the women serving in the war zones, but they did admit that twice as many women serving in Iraq and Afghanistan committed suicide as did women in the service not sent to war. As to where were the male suicides committed? Per the Pentagon report: "Iraq was the most common deployment location for both suicides and attempted suicides." Twenty eight (28) of the suicides occurred to soldiers deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan, the remainder were committed after returning or stationed back in the US. The sad cir stance that has gotten very little notice is that the 99 confirmed suicides are a small number of the 900+ confirmed suicide attempts. This is an increase of 42% over the attempted suicides for military personnel in 2005.
Finally, just what are the explanations for these suicides and the subsequent increases?
Needless to say, the stress on anyone that is being shot at or expecting a road-side bomb to explode at any turn has to be a tough situation to deal with on a day-to-day basis. In addition, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) and other psychiatric disorders are very difficult to diagnose and are conditions that most soldiers won't admit to as they are not "real, physical war wounds" that you can see.
Let's look at some of the issues that have driven these soldiers to the ultimate action of taking their own lives while serving in the military:
* In past wars, the normal tour for being in a war zone was 6 months and then a month off before moving on to another assignment. In Iraq and Afghanistan, that was first increased to 12 months and is now at 15 months. Even when these tours are over, they can be sent back again and again. Some soldiers today are on their 4th tour of duty in the Middle East.
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