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Manu is a European player because he played in Europe. The way I asscociate European players is that if he played in Europe he's played Euro ball so he's an European player. He also played in Argentina so he's an Argentine player too.
You seem to forget Manu played less than 30 minutes in those games.
Manu is a European player because he played in Europe. The way I asscociate European players is that if he played in Europe he's played Euro ball so he's an European player. He also played in Argentina so he's an Argentine player too.
"You seem to forget Manu played less than 30 minutes in those games."
Hmm, well doesn't he normally play around 30 anyways? Also, I don't really remember the series that well, admittingly, but why didn't he play more then 30 min if he was playing so great? Did Pop decide to just not play him and use Brown? Pop could have used both on the floor if that was the case...
1Parker1, The way Manu plays its better to keep him in the low 30s, all I'm saying is that you can't expect him to average 20+ ppg when he plays that amount of time.
I see what you are trying to say. Similarly, my point was that he did absolutely fantastic given:
If he was expected to take over every game, you MUST give him the touches and minutes.
- the limited number of plays drawn for him in offense.
- perhaps even more importantly, the very limited number of minutes he played.
Using your own example, Richard Hamilton against the Lakers averaged 20.6 pts/g, 18 FGA/g, 0.377 FG% and 44.4 minutes/game. He was the leading scorer on his team twice, same as Manu. Manu on the other hand averaged in those 4 games he was supposed to take over, 15.5 pts/g, 11.5 FGA/g, 0.457 FG% and 28.5 minutes/game.
Manu was tremendously more efficient than Hamilton, and got only 5.1 pts/g less despite playing freaking 16 minutes less per game. If you want him to be a 20+ scorer, he must play 35 min/g and get at least 15 FGA/g.
The problem in that LA series, as I have said ad nauseum, was the lack of adaptation by the Spurs. When the Lakers adapted, blocked TP's penetration and defended Tim very well, we didn't draw more plays for Manu and Devin, our two most efficient scorers. In fact, TP and Tim got the the same numer of minutes and shot attempts, despite not being as effective as before.
Ummmm...
Note what I said....
I said Latino because that envelops all peoples with "Latin" roots.... Italians definitely fall in that category... then I mentioned that Hispanics in San Antonio appreciate his culture... why? Many of them (myself included) still have roots in countries "south" of the border and can empathize with the hard work it takes for us to succeed in this country, albeit Manu will earn what 50 (edit: previously 500 but was off by a factor of 10) of us will earn over the span of our lifetimes.
I myself have a half spanish grandparent and one who is three quarters german... but you know what? I still ended up looking like a normal Mexican... must be cause I was born in México.... anyhow what I'm trying to say is that sometimes Argentinians fall short of the graces of other "american" cultures because many of them (not all) like to point out the differences between our cultures rather than embrace the similarities [this phenomenon might be news to some of the posters here... but anyone who's lived in another latin-american country, not named Argentina, will tell you that Argentinians are the 'stuck-up' cousins... because they like to consider themselves more 'european' than 'american' as if it meant they were inherently superior.]
Again, I'm not saying that all Argentinians feel this way. But several of the ones I've met over the years have held 'skin color' as an extremely critical caste selector when considering the merits of a person.... downright racism IMO.
Manu, though a proud Argentinian, has conducted himself in a manner that demonstrates that he has no consideration for race when determining the direction his interpersonal relationships will take (you can tell alot about a person from the sincerity of their actions). In pre-game shoot arounds he jokes around with children of all races. I've seen him at a Read to Achieve function and was genuine by all acounts.
I certainly don't expect a 180 degree turnaround in Ginobili's perceived personality 'ala Kobe because what you see from Ginobili on the court, with the media, while at home in his country, or on the court is what you get...transparency. Kobe was a hermit in nature even before last year's fiasco and despite the fact that he was considered the league's role model... so his fall from people's grace was not that big of a surprise to me...
I don't want to start a all-out debate on the generalizations which will certainly not apply to all. It's just that this particular quote pushed one of my buttons. You know, the whole...."well, technically Manu is not hispanic because he is Italian... and he has nothing to do with the indigenous peoples of the Americas.... {a feeling that he is better than that is implied}....
Anyways... just thought I would shed some light on a pet-peeve topic of mine. Good night.
Last edited by hegamboa; 12-21-2004 at 04:30 PM.
On a clarification.... Manu is by far my favorite player in the league...
Good post hegamboa
After living for more than 7 years in NY and having daily contact with my brothers for other Latin American countries, sadly I have to agree with you that the perception of Argentines among other "Latinos" is not very good (to say the least). Sadly too, I have to admit, we have earned our reputation.
The only thing I would like to add is that the Argentinos that spread a lousy image are not a majority. I hope you can come to my country and see for yourself that the assholes are a true minority.
By the way, nice to hear about Manu's support from the Latin community. The guy is a great addition to the Spurs and he should stay for the span of his contract despite what Sequ says about trading him for VC
E20, dude, WTF are you saying?
So the American players that play in Europe are also Euros; and the ones that play in Argentina (I know there's a few) are Argentine players.
Give me a break, man. Your statement is getting dumber by the second.
Well there is always Edwardo Najera (what happend to that guy anyway), the guy from Mexico who cheated on his spanish tests at Cornerstone high school.
Your point was??? I know dozens of Anglo-Americans who cheated on their english tests? As bad as cheating is, this speaks more about Najera's scholastic ap udes more than his quality as a player or his hussle on the floor. Eduardo is a 'poor man's' Malik Rose (Referencing the base state when Malik plays like vintage Malik).
Besides there are other Latinos in the NBA that are worthy of merit.
Carlos Arroyo
Raul Lopez
Trevor Ariza
Andres Nocioni
Pepe Sanchez (where did he go???)
And some that had a fan base locally like....
Vinny Del Negro
Anyways...
We have to expect the triple teams on Duncan to come in the 4th quarters these playoffs.
Manu or Parker alone will not be able to make up for a stifled Duncan.
Together, they can help the Spurs win even if Duncan is not effective.
If this is in responce to my saying that no one stops Duncan in the playoffs. I dont remember when the wolfs or blazers knocked the Spurs out of the playoffs in the last 6 years. I guess this happened in the bazaaro world.
Besides, KG and Wallace only cancelled out Duncan, they didnt stop him.
Last edited by GoSpurs21; 12-21-2004 at 02:58 PM.
Look I hadnt read that far into the post when I posted that, I didnt realize this was going to turn into a serious debate, I just wanted to bring up Najera so I could recant the story of how he got caught cheating on his spanish test at cornerstone. (my friend went to HS with him and apparently he was a little then too). Other than that, when you guys figure out what to call Hispanics/Latinos/Chicanos/etc., please let me know, as I am white and have gotten dirty looks and comments when using these different words around different people.
If he played Euro ball then he's a European player. That's how I think. Other people think different. I'm not saying he's European I'm saying he's an European player.
Hey Dracher.
The "hispanics/latinos/chicanos" terms are somehow derogatory (or may be so understood) when used by anybody from outside the group, somehow as a mirror image of "gringo".
We do call ourselves south-americans or latin-americans when we try to look as the things we have in common (that are really many); and mexicans, argentinians, etc when we are trying to stress our differences.
By the way we call you people, north-americans, the "gringo" apelation is not so nice.
All of this, of course, when talking of people born outside the US. You should know better than me why you get a dirty look when you call some connatural of yours "chicano".
...one stupid meng.
I got my Spanish book with me. Argentines are called Argentinos/as.
People from Puerto Rico are called Puertoriqucano(sp) etc etc. Too much to remeber I had to cheat on that portion of my test.
But, if a guy plays in the NBA isn't he called an NBA player? So since all the leagues in Europe (Italy, Spain, France, England, Germany etc.) are called European Leagues wouldn't it make sense that they should be called Euro Players? Even though they're not from European heritage but this is just sticking basketball.
"a guy plays in the NBA isn't he called an NBA player?"
A guy who plays is a playo.
A guy who plays but is really a little is a playa.
Last edited by boutons; 12-22-2004 at 05:40 AM.
Manu now is playing in Usa but he is´t an american
But he Born in American Continent in Latinamerica
And TD born in Virgin Island and he´s American
But Parker and Udrih never are americans, although they play in america
"But he Born in American Continent in Latinamerica"
????????? Please explain Waly. I thought Manu was born in Argentina? What's an American Continent? Do you mean, North America?
"Parker .... never are americans"
Parker's father is American so Tony was born with American citizenship.
.
Last edited by boutons; 12-22-2004 at 04:09 PM.
The division of continents is different depending on where you got your education. Most people in South America and Spain are taught that South America and North America are one unique continent (called "America"). In the US, we are taught that South and North America are two different continents.
I guess it doesn't really matter as long as we know what we are talking about.
Ha! The big loophole of international rules for citizenship.
Most countries, including US, along with the rest of North and South America, France, UK, Holland, Sweden, etc. adhere to the Citizenship by Birth principle (jus solis), i.e. citizenship is granted due to birth within the country. Birth in the country automatically confers citizenship regardless of the parents' citizenship or status.
Almost all countries adhere to the principle of Citizenship by Descent (jus sanguinis), i.e., citizenship of a nation is passed on to a child based upon at least one of the parents being a citizen of that nation, regardless of the child's actual country of birth. Though most countries adhere to the principle of citizenship by descent, they differ on some factors (father's vs. mother's rights, citizenship of one or both parents, the marital status of the parents, and others). Some countries like Germany, Swiss, Austria, etc. adhere to jus sanguinis exclusively.
Tony is an interesting case. His father is American, his mother is French, and he was born in Belguim. If Belgium has jus solis, he could have triple citizenship... Belgium (jus solis), French (mother's right) and American (father's right).
I think the father's rights have some restrictions in the US, but his father could argue that his child was born while he was working in Europe. I really don't think he is a Belgium citizen (he probably left when he was a child), but he could probably apply if he really wanted AND Belgium adheres to the jus solis concept (not sure). Tony probably has dual citizenship, French and American.
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