Questions about IRAN.

[101A]

i think we're getting what we asked for. do you think the hate for this country is being unfairly justifiable? you don't think we brought this on ourselves? who else should serve as blame for being the playmaker? the idea that bush is the only world leader that can be trusted is terrifying. hasn't anyone learned?

Bush was in office for 8 months when 9/11 happened.

Iranians, Egyptians, , Saudi's were dancing in the streets ON THAT DAY!

What has happened since then that we brought on ourselves?

In my mind (and I think the evidence bears me out) they already hated us, and haven't carried off a succesfull attack on our soil since.

[101A]

2 years? We've been despised by these people ever since we took their land and gave it to the Jews and called it Israel after WWII. Over 60 years ago.

I think it's pretty obvious they want to have one, but no one really knows if they will be able to get one. You kind of have to ask yourself three questions:

1) How badly do you not want them to have one?

2) What are you willing to do to keep them from having one?

3) What consequences are you willing to live with if you are wrong in assessing their desire/ability to have one?

I tend to view it as an "us against them" saga with myself being born on the American side of things. There are no good or evil sides to this, just us against them. I would personally kill anyone I have to in order to keep them from killing me, but that's just my philosophy.

No moral absolutism, but survival of the fittest?

Intellectually honest.

I can live with that.

[101A]

To clarify, I'm not saying that we should go and bomb these people because I'm not even sure that would be very effective to our cause at this point. What I do think we should do is stop fighting our little partisan bull fights and really break this thing down to it's core and decide just how big of a threat Iran is and decide the best course of action to handle it. That's kind of hard to do when everyone is backstabbing each other because they selfishly want a bigger piece of the political and financial pie for themselves.

That is a good post.

[101A]

you've just descibed everyone's philosophy. now, who's banging on who's door?

"They" are supplying our enemy.

"They" are aiding in the killing of our servicemen and women, and trying to bring about the failure of our mission.

We haven't bombed them.

We haven't armed a resistance against them.

, we never retaliated for the hostages 30 years ago!

As far as I'm concerned, as a country, we've shown great restraint toward a country which is waging a covert war against us.

[clambake]

Bush was in office for 8 months when 9/11 happened.

not really, he had protecting this country on ignore.

Iranians, Egyptians, , Saudi's were dancing in the streets ON THAT DAY!

i wonder why?

What has happened since then that we brought on ourselves?

the hate for our country and everything it used to represent.

In my mind (and I think the evidence bears me out) they already hated us, and haven't carried off a succesfull attack on our soil since.

who are they? iraq? iran? they were saudi, remember?

[101A]

not really, he had protecting this country on ignore.



i wonder why?



the hate for our country and everything it used to represent.



who are they? iraq? iran? they were saudi, remember?

You're the one who suggests BUSH brought "All this on ourselves".

My point (which you seem to have missed), is what is "all this"?

Bush didn't bring 9/11, or create the animosity which you seem to agree with; that apparently happened before. Nothing has happened since to be labeled "all this".

So, again, the only "all this" I can see is 9/11. Bush didn't "bring that on us".

Unless you are referring to another "all this". In which case, what is it?

[clambake]

you can't blame bush for all the hate. our history can't be ignored.

who made the shah?

who made saddam?

[101A]

you can't blame bush for all the hate. our history can't be ignored.

You're right; I thought you did that.

who made the shah?

who made saddam?

We did. Why is that relevent to current events?

If a bunch of Cherokees rise up and start scalping Topeka, should we just watch it happen?

[clambake]

We did. Why is that relevent to current events?

it's indicitive to our history of suppressing them. you see, we don't feel it, they do.

If a bunch of Cherokees rise up and start scalping Topeka, should we just watch it happen?

don't need to. we,ve diplomatically given them casinos as a token, just one example of appeasement. but we took everything from them. we don't feel it, they do.

[2centsworth]

So Clambake if you were president what would you do and how would that make things better?

[101A]

it's indicitive to our history of suppressing them. you see, we don't feel it, they do.

Suppress?

Do you know what that word means?

Exploit, even manipulate, yes. Suppress? How so?

[George Gervin's Afro]

One of the many things that frustrate the living out of me is when people deny we, the United States, have aligned ourselves with questionable characters. The same people deny that in these partnerships we have condoned , by our silence, some really bad stuff. There are many people around the world who hate us because we are hypocritical when it comes to somethings and bullies on others. No man alive likes to be told what to do especially when it serves the interest of the one's telling him. ray wouldn't like a dem to tell him what to do when the outcome is soley for the benefit of that dem. Now we have been, for the most, part a noble country that has freed millions of people and have monetarily supported many humanitarin efforts throughout history. we have done far more good than bad but to deny we have been guilty of siding with folks exclusively for our benefit without regards to what these people do to their own citizens is dishonest and dangerous.

[101A]

One of the many things that frustrate the living out of me is when people deny we, the United States, have aligned ourselves with questionable characters. The same people deny that in these partnerships we have condoned , by our silence, some really bad stuff. There are many people around the world who hate us because we are hypocritical when it comes to somethings and bullies on others. No man alive likes to be told what to do especially when it serves the interest of the one's telling him. ray wouldn't like a dem to tell him what to do when the outcome is soley for the benefit of that dem. Now we have been, for the most, part a noble country that has freed millions of people and have monetarily supported many humanitarin efforts throughout history. we have done far more good than bad but to deny we have been guilty of siding with folks exclusively for our benefit without regards to what these people do to their own citizens is dishonest and dangerous.

What pisses me off is when people can't realize that the past is the past, and that we can't make up for all of the crap that happened back then. We MUST live in the present for our own sake and that of our children. There are bad people in this world who don't like us; some for very legitimate reasons. Doesn't change the fact that they DON"T LIKE US, and want to do us harm!!! We get it. We know history. We know about the Shah, we know about the Royal Family, we know where Israel came from, and even feel a little bad about what happened to the Muslims in Spain 1200 years ago!!! None of that changes a damned thing, however!!!!

[clambake]

when i said supress, i meant we continue to slap down any discontent that might be exhibited by people we have already manipulated.

and it's easy to say "the past is the past" for americans because we don't feel it. we are the punishers of those that don't openly accept our will. we just label our opposition as terrorist and pretend our actions are somehow noble in it's result.

when we moved to america i was amazed at how easy it was for americans to label the IRA as terrorist. that's an example.

[Wild Cobra]

1. Are they trying to develop a nuclear weapon?

Absolutely, otherwise they wouldn't need the quan y of centrifuges they have been building.

2. If they are, should they be allowed to? If they are not, what's up with the USA?

No. They should not be allowed to. I think we can let the Israelis take the lead on this one. We should just stay out of their way. They have a survival issue at stake here, and will not let Iran develop the weapon. This simply have to wait long enough so their actions are seen as just.

3. What should the US do right now?

Focus on the points where Iran is helping our enemies in the war on terror.

Help Israel is they ask for it.

[xrayzebra]

One of the many things that frustrate the living out of me is when people deny we, the United States, have aligned ourselves with questionable characters. The same people deny that in these partnerships we have condoned , by our silence, some really bad stuff. There are many people around the world who hate us because we are hypocritical when it comes to somethings and bullies on others. No man alive likes to be told what to do especially when it serves the interest of the one's telling him. ray wouldn't like a dem to tell him what to do when the outcome is soley for the benefit of that dem. Now we have been, for the most, part a noble country that has freed millions of people and have monetarily supported many humanitarin efforts throughout history. we have done far more good than bad but to deny we have been guilty of siding with folks exclusively for our benefit without regards to what these people do to their own citizens is dishonest and dangerous.

GGA, one statement. Yours. Everyone hates us. How
come they only hate us for the deeds you say we have
done. But they don't hate Castro, Stalin or the other
dictators who have propped up other regimes that
suppressed their populace.

Just curious.

[clambake]

They should not be allowed to. I think we can let the Israelis take the lead on this one. We should just stay out of their way.

i see you've entirely thought this through

[101A]

and it's easy to say "the past is the past" for americans because we don't feel it. we are the punishers of those that don't openly accept our will. we just label our opposition as terrorist and pretend our actions are somehow noble in it's result.

when we moved to america i was amazed at how easy it was for americans to label the IRA as terrorist. that's an example.

Please tell me who we have mislabled "terrorist".

Please be specific.

The IRA did perform terrorristic acts. Do you know what the word means?

[Wild Cobra]

i see you've entirely thought this through

You must really think you're funny.

Yes I have thought it out, and for years had the same feelings about letting Israel have first blood when it comes to taking out nuclear sites in the region.

Almost old News...

Israel bombs Syria. The world stays quiet. If we did... We would never of hear the end of it!

[clambake]

Please tell me who we have mislabled "terrorist".

thats my point exactly. if someone came to rape you and your family and your people of your way of life, and you used the only means available to strike back, then you would carry the label of terrorist.

Please be specific.

look down

The IRA did perform terrorristic acts. Do you know what the word means?

i'm sure i do.

[George Gervin's Afro]

GGA, one statement. Yours. Everyone hates us. How
come they only hate us for the deeds you say we have
done. But they don't hate Castro, Stalin or the other
dictators who have propped up other regimes that
suppressed their populace.

Just curious.

castro and stalin don't claim to be the worlds beacon of hope, the country that protects the meek and seeks to spread freedom around the world.. we then turn around and support a dictator that tortures his people and uses wmds against part of his own population..can you see where I am coming from? I know ray you must make comments like 'eveyrone hates us' to prove your point. too bad i never said that.

[101A]

thats my point exactly. if someone came to rape you and your family and your people of your way of life, and you used the only means available to strike back, then you would carry the label of terrorist.


look down


i'm sure i do.

I'm confused.

What is your position.

The IRA is a terroristic organization; a succesfull one, at that. Righteous or not, the means they employed made them what they are.

[clambake]

it was the only means available and now they're a political wing with the right to exist.

[101A]

it was the only means available and now they're a political wing with the right to exist.

Very well.


So, an organization may employ what ever means are at its disposal in order to accomplish its larger, selfish, aims - and apparently, against large odds, it often, or at least some, times works.


Glad we see eye to eye on this.

[clambake]

if you ever find yourself on the other side, that would be a good time to examine your opinion on people who throw the terror label around as if it's fact.