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Then we better find a way to box out.
They'll be first tier this year. Health may be an issue, but their real weakness is in point play.
Then we better find a way to box out.
Good post!I think Elson did a fairly effective job last night on Yao, moreso then Oberto, at least for last night.
and the rockets hit 6 more 3 pt fg then the Spurs and out-rebounded us 55 to 28, killed us on the offensive boards 25 to 4. Despite this and playing at home the rockets only won by 8. It's early in the season and I think they'll start to play better.
They've been first tier for some time now, how can you not be with Yao and McGrady. However they perennially underachieve and underwhelm year in year out for whatever reason.
The Spurs got out hustled. Nobody on the team really gave effort on rebounding. That and guys like Wells and Hayes kept sneaking in for offensive rebounds.
would actually be something...
Today is a new day with ( hopefully) no missed rebounds in it.
5) CIA. It's a TRAP!
Spurs have traditionally had trouble with tall, strong teams like Houston. From Yao on down, they're bigger and stronger than we are (except for Alston). This gives them a big advantage on the boards. I was worried about this last year, but somehow we found a way to deal with it. Perhaps it was as Timvp said, they just cranked up the effort in the postseason and got it done.
Anyway, now Pop has his early loss and can be happy he can rag on the boys about it for a while.
I did watch the game last night, and Rockets simply manhandled us inside. From rebounding to Yao's putbacks and their ability (Yao and others) to deflect Tim from his usual strong inside game, they put the beef on us and we folded. Also Tim needs to f--ing stop thinking he's playing against the refs: quit throwing up weak and begging for a call, Tim. That's what he did most of the first half, and why he was so ineffective.
In all honestly though, I'd say its a good mixture of 1 and 2 with a tidbit of 3.
These Spurs obviously know how to kick things up to another level. For some reason, they were unable to do so last night, to the point where the game got downright embarassing on the boards. I dont think the Spurs have had to use that gear since the Finals last year, and even then it wasn't really tested. After 6 months and two easy first games, they couldn't summon it back when they needed it.
It's a new season, and this is a November-squad that is admittedly in coast mode right now. So I don't expect these rebounding statistics now to resemble those at the end of the season.
However, I think you're right about the Spurs having weak rebounders on the perimeter. Really, even the front line isn't that beefed up for the boards. Outside of Tim, nobody has a real nose for rebounds (Elson, Horry, and Oberto all have their specialties...but rebounding isnt one of them) and I also think the Spurs gradual tendency to increase the pace of their running game has also hurt them in this regard.
You can expect a few bad bounces to go the other teams way. But when the other team has grabbed 20 ing offensive boards, someone needs to stop breaking out and start boxing out.
Last year, Pop seemed to shift the teams focus more towards team rebounding as the season progressed. I wasn't able to watch last night, but it didn't sound like there was much of that happening.
We get outrebounded by 27 and only lose by 8 while TD is 5-15 and most of his shots weren't even good ones. Yao owned him defensively tonight.
You can put this one on TD.
One Name comes to mind.
JVG
I think the biggest problem is effort, though I agree that the Spurs have struggled with people like Wells against our wings.
From watching last night - there were too many tap-outs to Rockets (problem #1) and there were too many people watching the ball instead of hustling after it. There was no effort to get there and get the ball. It was like if it wasn't coming directly to them, they didn't see the point. There was an overall concession to the Rockets in rebounding. They can't be so courteous.
I expect it is something that will continue to frustrate us for awhile, but will be a negligible factor come April. I don't think they'll be the bestest rebounding ever! but I think they'll get the job done.
Even with the disgusting show on the boards, the game was winnable had a modi of effort been put forth. Shots were way off, hustle and energy were down. If the ball movement had been better, if ft's had been hit, if they capitalized on the copious amount of Rockets turnovers, we could have won depsite the performance on the boards. Ugh. If some minimum of effort had been extended, then I don't think the Rockets would have had all the offensive rebounds they had. I still think the disparity would have existed, but I thought effort was the biggest contributing factor, not ability.
Very good post! Great points made on all levels!
Like yourself, many of us fans have watched and known about their rebounding deficiencies for about 2 years. It was especially noticeable during the Sacto and Dallas playoff series from 2006. I said it then that I believed the Mavs series was lost because they simply outrebounded (and shot better) than the Spurs in all 7 games!
The FO made the decision to move away from the "plodding, bulky" 5-men to a more mobile version of the position in Elson and Oberto. We just won the championship so something fell right.
However, the rebounding woes still exist. The game against Houston only exposed what many of us have known for some time - the Spurs are simply not a good rebounding team. They defend superbly, but are terrible at boxing out and allowing second chance points. Perhaps this is where the age at the wing positions shows up most.
If I were Pop I would want to see more of Udoka/Bowen combo against an opponent with strong, active wing players like Hou/Dal/Utah/GS. Maybe Pop should also look at giving Ian some time against such an opponent where our bigs are overmatched. I'm not sure what the right solution is.
Given the events of last night, what do you think Avery and the Mavs are thinking about as the Mavs prepare to face off with the Spurs on next week?
#1
If Pop makes it a point of emphasis, the team as a whole picks it up a notch.
Same thing with fast break defense vs. the Suns, etc....
For what its worth. Even though Udoka was off defensively last night regarding rotations. I liked what I saw from him when he bodied up Bonzi during his time on court.
I don't think that is the right solution at this point. It's just 6 more fouls. I seriously doubt Ian is going to interfere with Yao much this year.
a little too much being made of 'only losing by 8' in my opinion.
It wasn't as close as that, the only reason it was 8 in the final tally is because the Rockets slacked off and gave the Spurs easy opportunities to score once the game was clearly out of reach.
You are right, Senior, about our wings, I think. Also that "something 'fell' right" last season.
I really think the only way to make up for bad rebounding is to hit the 3. The Spurs relied on the 3 ball last year more than any other. It scared the out of me then, but they got away with it because they were hot when they needed to be.
I think that's how we're going to roll this year too: by hiding the rebounding woes with strong shooting from Manu, Finley, Barry, and (hopefully) Parker and (maybe) Udoka. I sure hope it's enough.
I also think Pop is aware of the rebounding probs, that's why he's wanted Derrick McKey to come out of retirement.
Unfortunately, like you said, our wings aren't those types of wings.
I just don't see the Finley or Bowen turning into good rebounders.
Yao's getting better every year.
dallas can still rebound
Spurs can still shoot the 3.
Through the rest of Duncan's career the Spurs would be well served to find a rebounding big to play up front with TD. Not that I believe the lack of one is a fatal flaw.
The Spurs do seem to improve their rebounding disparity with opponents in the postseason. In the 2007 postseason it appears by glancing through the box scores that Manu, Horry, Finley, and Bowen each at times had games of 7+ boards. Oberto and Elson also had 6+ rebounding nights. I guess you can attribute some of that to playoff intensity or whatever. I think it has to do with the Spurs tightening up their defense and getting good spacing on offense. As much as the Spurs shoot the 3, with teams sagging on TD there is plenty of opportunity for 2nd chances.
#2.
Wings like Bonzi and Howard have always been a pain. Of course if our FG% was higher by making some of those chip shots then it probably wouldn't hae been an issue.
Bring back the Bruise Brothers!
though it would be nice to have some better rebounders at the wings, i dont think that was the main problem- its not like mike james and battier were the ones getting all the boards. it was really just yao and bonzi, and they were getting it done under the basket, not out at the elbows. so i dont think the problem is really the perimeter, rather a lack of personnel for yao/shaq (maybe we can begin to pencil in d. howard as well). i think those "super bigs" expose our frontcourt for what it is, duncan + limited role players. horry can change that but at his age we probably shouldnt rely on him to be the only solution.
that said, i think elson and oberto can do better than last night, and i think pop has to give udoka a chance on the bonzi / j. howard types.
i know after the dallas fiasco that many cant stand small ball, but i think that we have to explore that because our roster as is just cant match up with yao / shaq. if we're going to keep guys like bonner/finley/barry, who can play on only one side of the court, than we have to play to their strengths- ball movement, spacing, speed. i mean what does phoenix or LA (undersized doughnut teams, though la isnt as bad as phoenix) do when they play the rockets/heat? they run and tire them. we have to take advantage of yao / shaq 's poor conditioning and durability. play fast and physical. i think that is the best bet we have at this point.
I know folks will laugh or even scoff at this suggestion, but the rebounding woes was one of the main reasons I, personally, was hot on the Corey Maggette acquisition of last year.
I know folks will say he doesn't fit because he's not a prolific 3-ball shooter or that he doesn't play defense. However, the guy can and does rebound well for a swingman. Besides that, he can score from mid-range, get to the rim and is an excellent FT shooter.
Back to the present. As some have already stated, I see the rebounding deficiencies being exposed against teams with more athletic wing players who can board. For now, this will be a problem that the coaching staff will be challenged to cover up for the duration of the season and playoffs.
people, we cant win every catagory every night. Better free throws and a little better shooting by TD would make this game a "W" Lossing by 8 points is not bad. All u can ask is to give yourself a chance to win and they did that. Cant win them all..
i dont agree that its a problem of athletic wings. if that were the case, GS would outrebound us every game, and to my knowledge that doesnt happen. , every team would outrebound us since we have the least athletic perimeter personnel of the NBA. i think its more a problem of when their frontcourt forces us to do weird things- yao, shaq, and dirk do that to you (cant win position, forced to double, or forced to come out). thats when everyone else gets lost.
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