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  1. #26
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Well, we should never see inflation like that. I have some too. Not as large, but older... And in near perfect shape! I only took out the damaged on to scan. Forget seeing the rest on my old German money.

    Thing is, the 50,000,000 marks was not as much as it may seem. It was worth $20.00 in 1923. My 1910 1,000 mark bill was worth more in 1910 than the 1,000,000 Mark bill was worth in 1924! In 1919, it was worth $30.44, I didn't see an exchange table going back to 1910. They ended up printing so much money, I heard they had to take boxes of it to the store to buy anything before converting to the Reichmark in 1925. 1,000,000,000,000 marks = 1 Reichmark = 10 Deutchmarks.

    Here's a scan of mine:





    Here is a historical table, placing the prewar value of my 1000 mark bills at $238.21 each:

    Last edited by Wild Cobra; 11-30-2007 at 09:16 PM.

  2. #27
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    The financial melt-down has already commenced, you just have to know where to look...here's a hint....

    Florida Schools Struggle to Pay Teachers as Investments Frozen
    By David Evans

    Nov. 30 (Bloomberg) --
    School districts, counties and cities across Florida are scrambling to raise cash after being denied access to their deposits in a $15 billion state-run investment fund.

    Florida's State Board of Administration, manager of the Local Government Investment Pool, halted withdrawals yesterday at an emergency meeting after $12 billion was pulled out this month from participants. Governments from Orange County, home of Disney World, to Pompano Beach asked for their money back following disclosures that the fund held $1.5 billion of downgraded and defaulted debt.


    ``The unthinkable and the unimaginable have just happened here in Florida,'' said Hal Wilson, chief financial officer of the Jefferson County school district, which kept its entire $2.7 million of cash in the fund. ``What we just experienced here is a classic run-on-the bank meltdown.''

    Thousands of school districts, towns and fire departments across the U.S. keep their cash in state- and county-run pools. These public accounts, modeled after private money-market funds, are supposed to invest in safe, liquid, short-term debt such as Treasuries and certificates of deposit from highly rated banks.

    --
    No Money

    Just 30 miles (48 kilometers) east of the state capitol in Tallahassee, there was no money to pay the 220 teachers and other employees in Wilson's Jefferson County school district today. Wilson said he trusted the State Board of Administration's assurances that the money was safe even as other pool participants withdrew billions of dollars.
    Bloomberg

    We can't have all these trust fund, with people retirement money, taking their money out of these speculative investment vehicles just because they are now worthless....now can we?

  3. #28
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    We can't have all these trust fund, with people retirement money, taking their money out of these speculative investment vehicles just because they are now worthless....now can we?
    Goes to show the problems with investing in junk bonds... Retirements should never be placed in such vehicles. Any good financial manager will place such money in grade A bonds or better for the low yield investments. If any risks are to be taken for higher yield, it will be placed in the stock market, futures, etc.

    Who ever managed this money should be shot! Please stop making it sound as if the world is ending over this. A very tiny percentage of our wealth is tied up in the housing market with the poor mortgages. Not enough to have any real impact. The impact we see is because of all the Lemmings following what the media says.

  4. #29
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    Retirements should never be placed in such vehicles. Any good financial manager will place such money in grade A bonds or better for the low yield investments. If any risks are to be taken for higher yield, it will be placed in the stock market, futures, etc.
    These public accounts, modeled after private money market funds, are supposed to invest in safe, liquid, short-term debt such as U.S. Treasuries and certificates of deposit from highly rated banks.

    The Florida pool, which was the largest of its kind in the United States at $27 billion before the recent spate of withdrawals, has invested $2 billion in SIVs and other subprime-tainted debt, state records show. Connecticut, Maine, Montana and King County, Washington, are among other governments holding similar investments, in smaller quan ies. The Florida pool's $900 million of defaulted asset-backed commercial paper now amounts to almost 5 percent of its holdings.

  5. #30
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    A very tiny percentage of our wealth is tied up in the housing market with the poor mortgages.
    The housing crisis is fueling a credit crunch and this in turn is fueling price deflation..record drop in home prices because of weak sales is just the beginning..so it's not just bad mortgages that we should be worried about...

  6. #31
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    The housing crisis is fueling a credit crunch and this in turn is fueling price deflation..record drop in home prices because of weak sales is just the beginning..so it's not just bad mortgages that we should be worried about...
    OMG!

    Get a grip...

    The housing market bubble burst. Too many idiots continued to invest after the market was just on a run of buying, therefore causing a fic ious level of value. Housing is overpriced as an average, and that is a problem, but a minor one compared to what the media is doing.

    Again, those listening to the media, making it out as a crisis, are lemmings!

    Wake up...

    This is a natural correction for a market that is over valued. Plain and simple.

  7. #32
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
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    How old are you dan? Were you around for the 80's crash in
    housing? It was much, much worst than what it is now. Many
    people lost their houses in that episode.

    Really, really, the sky is not falling. Nor is credit drying up.
    Look at the real estate page in the paper today. Plenty of
    deals out there.

  8. #33
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    How old are you dan? Were you around for the 80's crash in
    housing? It was much, much worst than what it is now. Many
    people lost their houses in that episode.
    I don't see how you can compare a collapse that only affected most of TX, or at that time, Houston and Dallas-Metro, to one that affects the whole country..

  9. #34
    Believe. BradLohaus's Avatar
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    You know things are getting bad when boutons is quoting the Father of Reaganomics.

    I like Paul Craig Roberts alot; his article explained why a falling dollar is a terrible thing. A strong dollar is necessary to maintain our current standard of living; about 800 billion of them were traded for imports this year alone, and then used by foreigners to buy US debt, stocks, real estate,11% of Citibank...allowing us to keep spending like crazy while going deeper into debt, as well as driving asset prices higher.

    The rest of the world depends on a strong dollar as well; we buy tons of their goods and commodities, and the dollar represents 2/3 of global currency reserves. What happens in this country (and around the world) when that ratio falls to one half, or lower? So the problem is bigger than the subprime mortgages; even if we get through this crisis recession-free it still won't change the fundamental problem: ALL of our debt, public and private, is destroying the dollar. Like ES said, the day will come when the dollar isn't the world's reserve currency - and it will be foreign countries that make that decision:

    "The first day the Chinese or the Japanese or the Saudis say, `we've bought enough of your paper,' then the debt — whatever level it is at that point — becomes unmanageable," said Collender.

    National debt grows $1 million a minute
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071203/...tion_in_debt_4

    And the day that the debt becomes unmanageable is the day that the dollar is no longer the world's reserve currency. The same things that are happening to us happened to Britain last century. The used the reserve currency status of the pound to rack up debt on domestic spending and to sustain their empire, and the citizens had a blast trading their reserve currency for imports. Sound familiar?

    The US economy crisis
    http://www.dailyreckoning.co.uk/article/16102006.html

  10. #35
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    I saw an argument that said imports are only 16% of total US economy, so inflation of that 16% due to low $ is not a catastrophe, and somewhat offset by increased US exports.

    ok, found the article:

    December 2, 2007
    Economic View


    The Dollar Is Falling, and That’s Good News


    By TYLER COWEN

    ANXIETY about the dollar continues to spread. The falling greenback is often seen as a sign of an impending recession or the fall of the United States from global leadership. A low dollar simply looks bad. We are, after all, used to judging ourselves against others comparing our salaries with the earnings of our peers, and our homes with those of our neighbors. We’re used to thinking it is a big advantage to stand at the top of a numerical list.

    But when it comes to currencies, a higher value neither brings national success nor predicts future prosperity. The measure of a nation’s wealth is the goods and services it produces, not the relative standing of its currency. Take a look at 1985-88, when the dollar lost more ground than in the last few years. Those were good times, and the next decade was largely prosperous as well.

    Today’s lower value for the dollar reflects the success of other regions. Europe has shown it can make the European Union and its unified currency work, and thus the euro has become stronger. The Canadian union appears increasingly stable, and that means a higher value for the Canadian dollar. Over all, these geopolitical developments are good for America even if the dollar becomes weaker in relative terms.

    Many observers have an exaggerated sensitivity to the dollar’s fall because they spend more time in relatively expensive countries. A shopping trip to London will give an American tourist the feeling that all prices have doubled or even worse. A weekend vacation or conference in nearby Toronto or Montreal may no longer feel like a bargain.

    But from a broader perspective, the value of the dollar hasn’t fallen quite as much as it might seem. Since President Bush started his second term in January 2001, to Nov. 20 of this year, the dollar has dropped 19.8 percent if we weight the dollar by how much America trades with individual countries. That is a noticeable decline, but it is hardly a radical economic event. There are still many bargains, travel and otherwise, in Asia and Latin America for people paying in dollars.

    A falling dollar does mean price inflation in the United States. Just as it costs more for an American to buy a fancy meal in Paris, so do French wines and German cars have a higher markup when they are sold in New York. But imports are only 16 percent of the American economy, and most foreign suppliers have been reluctant to risk their position in the American market by raising prices a great deal. Furthermore many price increases from Europe come on luxury goods and thus they fall on wealthy American buyers, who can afford it most easily. Wal-Mart serves a more working-class clientele and it is stocked with goods from Asia, where currency values have remained weaker against the dollar.

    Of course the lower value of the dollar also makes American exports more compe ive. Much of Middle America is booming because of its ability to sell tractors, food stuffs and other products abroad at favorable prices. Even after a serious real estate decline, the American economy is continuing to expand, and this is largely because of the strength of our export sector, as encouraged by a low value for the dollar.

    Another worry is that a falling dollar puts the United States at the mercy of China. Dr. Brad Setser, a currency analyst at RGE Monitor, estimates that the Chinese hold about $1.2 trillion in dollar-denominated assets. China is likely to slowly diversify into other currencies, but Chinese leaders have no interest in encouraging a run on the dollar or a fire sale of dollar-denominated assets. China is in a more vulnerable position than the United States, if only because China is a poorer country and has underdeveloped capital markets.

    Still, it would be naïve to argue that a weak or falling dollar can never hurt the United States. Extreme volatility can increase general anxiety and discourage economic commitments. If the dollar went into a true free fall, it would damage the reputation of the United States as a desirable place for foreigners to invest. That would hurt; but on the other hand a low dollar would mean bargains for foreigners, thereby attracting investment and limiting the potential negative fallout from a dollar collapse.

    SO far the Federal Reserve and the Bush administration have shown little concern over the falling dollar. This isn’t because of neglect or lack of interest; trillions of dollars worth of currency are traded every day, so policy makers have only a limited ability to push around long-term exchange rates, even if they wanted to do so.

    When it comes to market prices, people can always find reason to be unhappy. In the eurozone, for example, it is a common complaint that the euro is too strong and therefore it is too difficult for Europeans to export goods and services.

    In the case of the dollar, we need to stop thinking of its value as a marker of economic success. The American economy has its problems, but so far the low value of the dollar has proved more a benefit than a cost.

    Tyler Cowen is a professor of economics at George Mason University.

  11. #36
    Believe. BradLohaus's Avatar
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    If the dollar went into a true free fall, it would damage the reputation of the United States as a desirable place for foreigners to invest.
    Next sentence:

    That would hurt; but on the other hand a low dollar would mean bargains for foreigners, thereby attracting investment and limiting the potential negative fallout from a dollar collapse.
    So a fire sale of US assets will help ease the pain of a dollar collapse. That's reassuring.


    The American economy has its problems, but so far the low value of the dollar has proved more a benefit than a cost.
    I know I've benefited from paying $3.00 a gallon for gas. I'm guessing this guy's wife does his shopping.

  12. #37
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    Yep, funny how Tyler Cowen, a globalist who likes to disguise himself as a libertarian economist, completely avoids any chance of a squeezing credit crunch, and also, don't look for an increase in exports fueled by a lower dollar to save the day, we simply don't produce enough exportable goods in America anymore...

    The contemporary US economy is a consumption economy based on virtual wealth: Increasing debts based on unrealized real estate assets, purchased by loaning printed money that has no real economic backing. The problem is aggravated since production capabilities, including technological know-how have migrated almost completely from the US to the Far East. Thus, 70% of the growth in the American economy has to do with the consumption of finished products, while in China the giant growth of 10% per annum is created by production which is soon transformed into exports.

    Uncle Sam's Bankruptcy

    The bottom line is that in recent years, the US has been transformed from a self sufficient autarkic economy, into an economy dependent on outside forces. In reality, the US is enormously bankrupt, with the largest debt in the world, reaching the mythic sum of nearly 10 trillion (10,000 billion) dollars! Just for comparison, the second largest external debt in the world, Britain's, stands at 7 trillion, while Israel has an external debt of 73 billion dollars.

    At present, nobody has a real interest in stopping this runaway train. The current Chairman of the Federal Reserve, Ben Bernanke, who became known as "the Chopper" after he made it clear he would not allow the US economy to fall into a recession, and if necessary, would fly over America in a helicopter and scatter dollars to citizens in order to fuel the economy (a citation of the recently deceased economist Milton Friedman).

    The countries absorbing the excess dollars also encourage the continuous printing of money in order to ensure their growth and the unrestrained consumption of their products by the Americans. Furthermore, the Chinese, for example, make the simple calculation that a lower valued dollar would lower the value of their vast reserves of dollars. Additionally, such a development could also harm Chinese exports, as foreign purchasing power would fall. Simply put, Americans would not have the money to buy another shirt made in China.

    The Inevitable Rupture of the Printing Bubble

    But economics has one fundamental rule above all others, namely "There is no such thing as a free lunch", and one day it will all end. It could possibly start with layoffs in some factory, such as General Electric, due to an uncontrolled factor, such as a faulty assembly line. The reduced income of the people fired would lower consumption, which would create a feeling of recession and slowdown. This would soon lower real estate prices, the force behind movement in the American economy; mortgages could not be covered and even the banks might collapse.

    It could also be triggered an external factor. Thus, for example, a number of countries with large dollar reserves, including China (reserves to the tune of a trillion dollars), Russia and Iran, have recently announced that they intend to diversify their reserves of foreign currency, in other words, exchange their dollars for other currencies such as the Euro.

    Actually, it is difficult to predict when and how the bubble will burst, and the question is not all that important. Everybody realizes that the path to an economic crisis has been paved and the process is not reversible. Already, American economists warn of the expected fall in the real estate market, and the dispute is whether it would be an emergency landing or a crash.

    Furthermore, the migration of production from the US would prevent any way of rehabilitating its economy, as its strength is very dependent on the ability of industry to produce and export. Textiles, shoes, electric appliances, computers – are all no longer manufactured in the US. The automobile industry, the acme of the American economy, is currently in deep crisis and experiencing soaring losses. General Motors alone lost over 10 billion dollars in 2005. Moreover, even after the value of the dollar plunges, there is still a yawning gap between the Far East and the West when it comes to manufacturing costs and employee salaries.

    Even the assumption that the devaluation of the dollar against currencies used to trade with the US would generate positive change and create a trade surplus for the US has proved false. Thus, for example, the dollar has devalued against the Euro in the last 4 years by over 40%! Yet the American debt continues to grow.

    A Global Dark Wave

    One day a child will call out that "the dollar is naked". The unavoidable result of the weakness of the American economy would be an economic tidal wave – the value of the dollar would plunge, causing a shakeup of unprecedented magnitude in the global economy. It should already be noted that already today the value of the dollar is 5% of its value at the beginning of the twentieth century.

    This bleak prophecy is not only the realm of lonely doomsayers. The highly influential book, 'Empire of Debt', by Bill Bonner and Addison Wiggin believes that like any other empire in history, the end of the American empire will also arrive. The authors describe how the enormous trade deficit, burgeoning personal and governmental debts, the real estate bubble and enormous military expenditure will ultimately cause the economic crash of the United States. British economist Bruce Porthouse, is gloomier still, and warns that the collapse of the dollar and the consequent global economic crisis, would cause the collapse of Anglo-Saxon society, to the point of famine in the US, Canada, Australia, New-Zealand, and Britain.

    What can be done? There are those who recommend exchanging the dollar for other currencies. Bonner and Wiggin advise the purchase of gold. This metal is the leading economic base and is distinct from a country's economy. It is therefore a safe haven when the world's economies are in trouble. This explains the constant rise by 100% in the value of gold since the beginning of the twenty-first century – from 300 dollars an ounce in 2000 to over 600 dollars an ounce today.
    Link

  13. #38
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    "fire sale of US assets"

    Nobody's forcing the US asset holders to sell, nor the buyers to buy, aka both are "free" to/not buy/sell. Are you now against, are you cherry-picking the results of "free market" when you don't like those results?

    "avoids any chance of a squeezing credit crunch,"

    the article is about exchange rates, not about absence of liquidity (nobody wants to lend to anybody now, no matter what the interest rate, because they aren't sure of being re-paid, aka, a liquidity "crisis"). The Fed lowering the interest rate and printing $Bs to ease the liquidity will of course have an depressing effect on the $ exchange rate, as always.

    100s of $Bs flowing into the US as higher-valued currency holders buy into US assets "should" help the US liquidity crisis.

    As the article says, the real measure of wealth is the ability to create wealth by making/having stuff in large quan ies that people value and want to buy, in $ or non-$ currencies.

    The US 's is still the largest, most productive economy and it ain't going to disappear, even if the bull under-regulated Masters of the Universe have been looting it with their bull financial shenanigans and Internet and housing bubbles.

    Note that the none of the Masters of the Universe, nor their "free market" enabling politicians, will ever live under bridges, be foreclosed on, but they will lay off 10s of 1000s of workers/suckers in the lower 99% so they can keep pocketing their $Ms, eg, the $38B the US financial ins utions are paying themselves this month in 2007 bonuses.

  14. #39
    Believe. BradLohaus's Avatar
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    "fire sale of US assets"

    Nobody's forcing the US asset holders to sell, nor the buyers to buy, aka both are "free" to/not buy/sell. Are you now against, are you cherry-picking the results of "free market" when you don't like those results?
    The Federal Reserve exists for the purpose of manipulating the money market; what's going on right now is the result of the artificially low interest rates of recent years. I'm not cherry picking the results of the free market because there is no free credit market.

    And nobody's going to hold a gun to US asset holders heads, but just like Citibank's deal with the UAE group, many of them willl be in a tight position and will welcome buyouts, even at "bargain" prices - the end result of Greenspan and Bernanke's actions.

    The US 's is still the largest, most productive economy and it ain't going to disappear, even if the bull under-regulated Masters of the Universe have been looting it with their bull financial shenanigans and Internet and housing bubbles.
    That's true, but the dollar's reserve currency status will disappear. That means, in time, no more trade deficit, no more budget deficits, and no more negative savings rate for us. And since our current standard of living is completely dependent on those things, that means a lower standard of living for us when that happens, at least for a while.

  15. #40
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
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    See: Argentina, 2001.

    On the plus side, it only took them five years to pull out of that depression.

    On the other hand, they're not the United States.

  16. #41
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    "buyouts, even at "bargain" prices"

    the $ prices asked by US asset holdered don't have to be lowered to "fire sale", since for foreign buyers, the prices have been lowered by the devalued dollar.

    "reserve currency status will disappear."

    replaced by ...?

  17. #42
    JEBO TE! Clandestino's Avatar
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    a little basic economics.. when foreigners buy american goods they buy them in US DOLLARS... that means they have to sell their foreign currency for ours... after a while the demand for dollars goes us and so does the value of the dollar.

  18. #43
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    When Republicans blame Democrats and vice versa, it reminds of that commerical where the Coca-Cola Zero guys want to sue Coca-Cola for "taste infringement."
    Dude you just wont the "most true statement of the thread" award.

  19. #44
    Believe. BradLohaus's Avatar
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    the $ prices asked by US asset holdered don't have to be lowered to "fire sale", since for foreign buyers, the prices have been lowered by the devalued dollar.
    Right - a fire sale is usually a panic sale in which a company is facing bankruptcy, so they lower their prices to try to get some quick liquidity to stave off bankruptcy. If the dollar collapses then plenty of US companies will be facing bankruptcy, but they might be in a position to avoid it by accepting foreign investment to gain liquidity, but the dollars they will receive from foreigners will be drastically devalued, which is the equivalent of lower prices, and thus a fire sale.

    But it just sounds alot better to say, as Tyler Cowen did, that a dollar collapse will mean bargains for foreigners and attract investment. I'm not saying he's lying; I'm sure he truly thinks that a dollar collapse wouldn't be a major crisis. I, and alot of people around the world, think he's dead wrong.

    "reserve currency status will disappear."

    replaced by ...?
    I don't see how anybody could know for sure. But if you look at this chart of global currency reserves http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_currency the trend since Greenspan started cutting interest rates in 2001 is more Euros (<20% of global reserves in 2001 to 25% in 2006) and fewer dollars (70% to 65%). The difference between those two percentages will continue to shrink, as I'm sure it has done this year.

    But I don't think the transition will be to the Euro alone. It will probably be some kind of basket of the major currencies of the world for at least a while; I've read calls for the IMF's Special Drawing Right to replace the dollar's role in international trade. Then it could be the Euro, but that would require the EU to become a military super power like we are today and Britain used to be. We may never see a single currency used as the major reserve currency of the entire world ever again. (And I won't even try to guess about how all of this will play out with OPEC; US military power, and the willingness to use it, is definitely a wild card in all of this.)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Drawing_Rights

    But there's an obvious catch: there aren't enough of the other currencies to fill in the hole that a lower role for the dollar would leave. I think gold will, for a while, make up the difference. In 1950 gold was 70% of international reserve assets. By 1970 it was down to 30%. After the end of Bretton Woods, it was down to 10% by 1980 and by 2000 it was 2%. I'm not sure exactly what it is today, but's certainly not much. Obviously it will never get close to 70% again, or even 30%. But after a dollar collapse its role as a reserve asset will be forced to grow. So if the world went to something like the SDR to play the major role in international trade, you would probably see gold included in the basket. As world trade picked back up it could be slowly removed without causing the currencies in the basket to appreciate.

    Or a dollar collapse causes a severe global depression that leads to WW3 and we are all screwed.

  20. #45
    Believe. BradLohaus's Avatar
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    a little basic economics.. when foreigners buy american goods they buy them in US DOLLARS... that means they have to sell their foreign currency for ours... after a while the demand for dollars goes us and so does the value of the dollar.

    That would be true if our money supply was fixed; instead we have Helicopter Ben piloting the ship.

  21. #46
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    when foreigners buy american goods they buy them in US DOLLARS.
    So when you go shopping at Walmart do you buy your things with Yen?

  22. #47
    JEBO TE! Clandestino's Avatar
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    So when you go shopping at Walmart do you buy your things with Yen?
    just keep quoting bull articles you find in your hours and hours of searching. you have no thoughs of your own and no education to back up anything you...actually, i guess, you never really say anything. you just quote stories about the sky falling.

  23. #48
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    Actually, I probably write enough to fill a book every month, but like most things in life, my post are well over your head.....

  24. #49
    JEBO TE! Clandestino's Avatar
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    Actually, I probably write enough to fill a book every month, but like most things in life, my post are well over your head.....

  25. #50
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    Slowing the bleeding....

    WASHINGTON -Congressional aides say the Bush administration has hammered out an agreement with industry to freeze interest rates for certain subprime mortgages for five years in an effort to combat a soaring tide of foreclosures.

    These aides, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the details have not yet been released, said the five-year moratorium represented a compromise between desires by banking regulators for a longer time frame of as much as seven years and industry arguments that the freeze should only last one to two years.

    Another person familiar with the matter said the rate-freeze plan would apply to borrowers with loans made at the start of 2005 through July 30 of this year with rates that are scheduled to rise between Jan. 1, 2008, and July 31, 2010.

    The administration said that President Bush will speak on the agreement at the White House on Thursday and the Treasury Department announced that Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson and Housing and Urban Development Secretary Alphonso Jackson would hold a joint news conference Thursday afternoon with officials of the mortgage industry.
    Yahoo

    Where are Scott and all the free-marketeers when Govt. steps in to help the supposedly 'free market'?

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