Remember...

[Ignignokt]

i guess whoottt cant detect mcSarcasm.

[whottt]

The man in the picture is Tariq Bashir a Pakistani Muslim. He spent the first 18 years of his life living under a bridge in Pakistan smoking opium(that's what you call Pakistani birth control and social programming and it's actually better than what is offered in countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia). At the age of 19 he was found by a kind hearted and gentle Pakistani Mullah and shown the light and warmth of Islam...you know, how nuclear armageddon, in particular a nuclear armageddon upon the US, is our fate and something that should be embraced and loved it is good and pure...how the Jews should be exterminated...how all infidels should be slaughtered. And how killing your enemies via suicide bomb will grant you an afterlife of wealth and happiness(an easy sale considering the toilet that has been his life up to this point)...

He has no education or life experience beyond what that Mullah gave him, that Mullah himself likely has no more than what he passed on to kind hearted Tariq...


You are on about the same level of political insight as this guy...and you say the same exact things...


Congratulations

[JoeChalupa]

I thought the mission was accomplished in Iraq? I'd like to know how y'all did it?

[whottt]

You seen Saddam lately?

[whottt]

Might look pretty good on your car...

[JoeChalupa]

You seen Saddam lately?

No, and I haven't seen any WMD either. And I don't do the bumper sticker thing. I'm sure you've got one of these on yours though.

[whottt]

No, and I haven't seen any WMD either.

I guess Saddam should have thought about that before he kicked the Weapons Inspectors out for 4 years and violated the terms of his ceasefire agreement with us umpteen times...


Sucks to be him.

And I don't do the bumper sticker thing. I'm sure you've got one of these on yours though.

No I don't...

But might I reccomend another for you?

[whottt]

Really nifty no war for oil one I saw too.


It's indepth research like this that gives me so much faith in the left...

[JoeChalupa]

Really nifty no war for oil one I saw too.


It's indepth research like this that gives me so much faith in the left...

It's the same indepth research that gives me so much faith in the right... Bumper stickers are lame.....just like huge banners are.

[xrayzebra]

I guess Saddam should have thought about that before he kicked the Weapons Inspectors out for 4 years and violated the terms of his ceasefire agreement with us umpteen times...


Sucks to be him.







No I don't...

But might I reccomend another for you?

Some needs to tell the Kurds that they died of something
besides WMD I guess. Also the Iranian's.

He had them. Just what did he do with them?

[BradLohaus]

We can pressure the Sauds for Democratic reform...in fact, we are doing so, and there's been more progress on that front in the last 6 years than in the previous 80 years. Helps if they've seen you take out a country that you had issues with...helps quite a bit.

The Sauds have a trillion dollars invested in our economy...probably a not a good idea to just take a wrecking ball to them, without good reason...not to mention that whole Islamic Holyland thing they have going...


But the fact is, the more Democracies in the mid-east, the harder it will be for the un-democractic countries to stay hardline...with Israel being the only one there it's easy to those leaders to tap into xenophobia and religious bigotry and denounce their way of life and governing...once it's an Arab country that's not hole it becomes much harder...it also becomes harder for them to claim America only wants to help the jews and is the cause of their suffering.

Well if we pressure the Saudi royalty for reforms, that's great. But as soon as those reforms cause some problems for them they're going to be eliminated. And we are all for democracy in the ME, as long the elected leader doesn't oppose what we do there. If they do then they will get Mosaddeq-ed.

What happens if democracy becomes strong in Saudi Arabia and the people vote to remove the Saudi royalty from power completely, to nationalize their oil (like Mosaddeq), and to kick foreign militaries off of Saudi soil? Do you think we will let that happen? Not a chance.

Understanding the oil interests of the US and not challenging the power structure in the ME are the 2 requirements for ME governments that our leaders have. And I mean the real leaders: the top of the Pentagon, the CIA, the groups like PNAC - the people who really run things. If they really cared about democracy then Mosaddeq would have never been overthrown and the Saudi royalty would have been taken out instead. But the first one forgot the 2 requirements, so he's gone, and the 2nd group understands them, so they stay. The first was elected, the 2nd are dictators, and...well, there you have it.

All of this is bigger than liberal vs. conservative. I'm conservative by the way.

[JoeChalupa]

Well if we pressure the Saudi royalty for reforms, that's great. But as soon as those reforms cause some problems for them they're going to be eliminated. And we are all for democracy in the ME, as long the elected leader doesn't oppose what we do there. If they do then they will get Mosaddeq-ed.

What happens if democracy becomes strong in Saudi Arabia and the people vote to remove the Saudi royalty from power completely, to nationalize their oil (like Mosaddeq), and to kick foreign militaries off of Saudi soil? Do you think we will let that happen? Not a chance.

Understanding the oil interests of the US and not challenging the power structure in the ME are the 2 requirements for ME governments that our leaders have. And I mean the real leaders: the top of the Pentagon, the CIA, the groups like PNAC - the people who really run things. If they really cared about democracy then Mosaddeq would have never been overthrown and the Saudi royalty would have been taken out instead. But the first one forgot the 2 requirements, so he's gone, and the 2nd group understands them, so they stay. The first was elected, the 2nd are dictators, and...well, there you have it.

All of this is bigger than liberal vs. conservative. I'm conservative by the way.

Great post. I don't know why things have to be "red" or "blue" and not an American point of view. I agree with many conservative ways of thinking but I'm also a progressive.

[whottt]

Well if we pressure the Saudi royalty for reforms, that's great. But as soon as those reforms cause some problems for them they're going to be eliminated.

The lack of reforms are part of the reason they are hated.

And we are all for democracy in the ME, as long the elected leader doesn't oppose what we do there. If they do then they will get Mosaddeq-ed.

Oh please...you have no basis for that kind of statement.


Do we hate Democracy in Western Europe? Japan? Korea?


Why would it be any different for an OPEC Country?


Sheer and utter propaganda...we didn't put the Saudi Family in power...it just so happens, they tend to be one of the more stabilizing governments int he region.

What happens if democracy becomes strong in Saudi Arabia and the people vote to remove the Saudi royalty from power completely, to nationalize their oil (like Mosaddeq),

You mean like in Venezuela?


I don't know...what do you think will happen? We go to war?

and to kick foreign militaries off of Saudi soil? Do you think we will let that happen? Not a chance.

Of course we will...we've already pulled out of there quite a bit.


I want you to show me where we stay when governments ask us to leave? When we they are non-hostile towards us and we aren't there as part of a postwar/cease fire agreement.


When...where?


Just because they have some idiots protesting us to leave...that's not the voice of the government...

Understanding the oil interests of the US and not challenging the power structure in the ME are the 2 requirements for ME governments that our leaders have.

Oh bull ...if they go Democratic and they are not hostile with their neighbors...we have absolutely no recourse for invading them...


We can't pull that off...

And I mean the real leaders: the top of the Pentagon, the CIA, the groups like PNAC - the people who really run things. If they really cared about democracy then Mosaddeq would have never been overthrown and the Saudi royalty would have been taken out instead. But the first one forgot the 2 requirements, so he's gone, and the 2nd group understands them, so they stay. The first was elected, the 2nd are dictators, and...well, there you have it.

All of this is bigger than liberal vs. conservative. I'm conservative by the way.

A conservative who seems to be completely clueless on the coldwar...


Mossadeq was going commie and was likely to ally with Russia...

I know I know...the Russians had nothing but benevolent goals in that region of the world...

And most of the Iranians liked the Shah...and IRan was a non hole...you know which Iranians didn't like him? The Islamic ones....because he kicked their ass for wanting to seize power. And they were sponsored by the Soviets BTW.


There are 15 examples of the US doing the right thing, and you take the one example of them doing the wrong thing, you ignore the coldwar alliance aspect of it, you ignore the role the British played in it, and then you attribute it to our current activity in the ME.


And that, is simply lame.


Why don't you just go ahead and say the US was behind 9/11 because the needed an excuse...


If we wanted a dictator to give us subsidized oil....Saddam would still be in power.


OPEC...we aren't just securing our Oil supply over there...we're securing the worlds...


And since control of that region and it's resources has twice been the cause of us entering into a WW...can you really blame us?


I can't.





Anyone that drives a car and uses petroleum that es about oil is full of it to me...stop driving a car...practice what you preach, no one is forcing you to drive a car. If you drive a car...stop driving it...then you can complain about oil.

[whottt]

But anyway...you're right, we make friendly with the brutal Saudi regime becase they have oil...and as anyone knows, if you got oil, we're your best friend...

Like Libya, and Iran, and Venzuela, and Iraq...


The relationship with Saudi Arabia is the way it is because of the Cold War...


And I guarantee you we'd rather have Democracy there than Islamic Theocracy...

[BradLohaus]

The lack of reforms are part of the reason they are hated.

Yes, along with their existence.

Oh please...you have no basis for that kind of statement.

No basis for claiming that the CIA will destabilize or overthrow regimes when it is deemed necessary?

Do we hate Democracy in Western Europe? Japan? Korea?

Nothing to do with the ME. And I'm not saying saying that we hate democracy; it's about what is in the interests of the people in power here.

Why would it be any different for an OPEC Country?

Control over oil (Comparing ME policy to Europe and East Asia???)

Sheer and utter propaganda...we didn't put the Saudi Family in power...it just so happens, they tend to be one of the more stabilizing governments int he region.

Irrelevant; all that matters is that: #1 they are hated by the non wealthy in the country and #2 we support them financially and militarily. And yes, dictators often provide “stability” – but it comes at a price if you are a foreign power that supports them.

I don't know...what do you think will happen? We go to war?

No – it will never be allowed to go that far. The Saudi royalty will only allow democratic reforms to the point that their control is threatened; when that happens the reforms will be pulled back. And they have the US military backing them.

Of course we will...we've already pulled out of there quite a bit.

I want you to show me where we stay when governments ask us to leave? When we they are non-hostile towards us and we aren't there as part of a postwar/cease fire agreement.

When...where?

Just because they have some idiots protesting us to leave...that's not the voice of the government...

You are using the voice of the government and the voice of the majority of the people synonymously. If you want an example from a country with meaningful elections, then I can’t give you one. If you want one from a government with dictators in control in opposition to the will of the people, then I can – Saudi Arabia today.

Oh bull ...if they go Democratic and they are not hostile with their neighbors...we have absolutely no recourse for invading them...

We can't pull that off...

We’ll do it if the democratic governments try to kick out our military and nationalize their oil and prevent western access to it.

A conservative who seems to be completely clueless on the coldwar...

Mossadeq was going commie and was likely to ally with Russia...

I know I know...the Russians had nothing but benevolent goals in that region of the world...

And most of the Iranians liked the Shah...and IRan was a non hole...you know which Iranians didn't like him? The Islamic ones....because he kicked their ass for wanting to seize power. And they were sponsored by the Soviets BTW.

There are 15 examples of the US doing the right thing, and you take the one example of them doing the wrong thing, you ignore the coldwar alliance aspect of it, you ignore the role the British played in it

In 1951 the Iranian parliament voted to nationalize Iran’s oil, take control of the British owned Anglo-Iranian Oil Company and to seize their assets. The prime minister at the time opposed this and was assassinated by a fundamentalist group. Mosaddeq was then elected prime minister, and he went ahead as planned. The British wouldn’t let Iran export any oil from the refineries that they used to control, and later threatened a blockade to prevent Iran from shipping any oil out of the country.

This caused hardship in Iran, and Mosaddeq reached out to the communists and fundamentalists in Iran to strengthen his position of power. The British then turned to the US to help resolve their problem, playing up Mosaddeq’s ties to communists (which were based more on his desire to retain power and not ideology), leading to Operation Ajax. In return for helping the Anglo Iranian Oil Company, 5 US oil companies plus Royal Dutch S and a French oil company were allowed to operate in Iran after the coup.

Long story short, the Cold War aspect of the situation is played up while the oil aspect is played down. The British played hardball with Iran over control of Iranian oil. Mosaddeq tried to play hardball right back, but the British reached out to the US and the CIA took him out.

and then you attribute it to our current activity in the ME.

And that, is simply lame.

It’s comparable because oil is always the major factor in ME policy.

If we wanted a dictator to give us subsidized oil....Saddam would still be in power.

Did western oil interests make more money in Iraq before or after Saddam was taken out?

OPEC...we aren't just securing our Oil supply over there...we're securing the worlds...

If that’s the case then the world needs to start pulling its weight, but I don’t think that’s really the case.

And since control of that region and it's resources has twice been the cause of us entering into a WW...can you really blame us?

I can't.

Then don’t be surprised when people from countries who live under dictators that our leaders support want to kill us. Chalk it up to the cost of doing business if you’d like.

Anyone that drives a car and uses petroleum that es about oil is full of it to me...stop driving a car...practice what you preach, no one is forcing you to drive a car. If you drive a car...stop driving it...then you can complain about oil.

Please…

[BradLohaus]

But anyway...you're right, we make friendly with the brutal Saudi regime becase they have oil...and as anyone knows, if you got oil, we're your best friend...

Like Libya, and Iran, and Venzuela, and Iraq...

You are making my point for me. Saddam is gone and we will be friendly with whatever government is in place in Iraq, as long as they are friendly to our interests. The other countries’ leaders are not friendly to us, so they are “bad guys” who our leaders would love to replace with “good guys” who “provide stability”. It has nothing to do with the fact that they truly are bad guys, obviously. Nobody had any problem with Saddam when he attacked Iran, and nobody did anything when he gassed the Kurds, but he became a bad guy when he attacked Kuwait. It’s all relative - relative to the interests of the people who run our country.

The relationship with Saudi Arabia is the way it is because of the Cold War...

How long do you get to play that card? 50 years? A century?

And I guarantee you we'd rather have Democracy there than Islamic Theocracy...

Definitely. It would be a lot easier…as long as that democracy votes in line with Western oil interests. Otherwise, our leaders will take option B and live with whatever problems fall out from that. Or the rest of us will, I should say.

[MannyIsGod]

I guess I understand why you guys had to go off on Iraq in this thread. Its not like it happens in EVERY OTHER ING THREAD in this forum.

[JoeChalupa]

You guys?