HDDVD vs. BluRay

[Medvedenko]

I'm waiting....but I'm probably going to buy HDDVD...as I'm a Xbox fan. But still, Bluray players are nice, but their too expensive for my tastes at the moment. Maybe a duel format player is the way to go.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Gimme a break! it's not like HDDVD is an open source format. Whoever wins will make a fortune of which you'll see nothing. My view is since I'll have to live with it, can I please at least get the better format?! I don't know about you but I still haven't forgotten the ty picture of VHS and how impossible it was to get rid of it.

More to the point:

Blu-ray Disc was started by Hitachi, LG, Panasonic, Pioneer, Philips, Samsung, Sharp, Sony, and Thomson in February 19, 2002

HD DVD is defined by the DVD forum which was founded by: Hitachi, Ltd., Matsu a Electric Industrial Co. Ltd., Mitsubishi Electric Corporation, Pioneer Electronic Corporation, Royal Philips Electronics N.V., Sony Corporation, Thomson, Time Warner Inc., Toshiba Corporation,Victor Company of Japan, Ltd. (JVC)

Yeah, loads of charitable names and friendly companies who never enforced their licences before! What a wondeful choice!!!

It's not really about HD DVD being nice to the consumer and Sony not, you're talking about the lesser of two evils.

Still, Sony's DRM sucks, and honestly I'm tired of them trying to force proprietary format after proprietary format on everyone (which only benefits them).

HD DVD gives me everything BR can as far as pic quality and audio for a fraction of the price. And I'm supposed to buy BR for twice the cost out of the goodness of my heart as a donation to Sony? that.

About the only area BR really has HD DVD is on data archiving disks, but honestly, for the cost of a couple of BR discs (let's not even get into the fact the burners out are 2x write speed ), I could have over a terabyte of hard drive backups at my disposal. Which makes more sense?

This whole thing comes down to greed, and frankly I'd rather not let it be Sony's that wins (particularly because I don't think the premium in price over HD DVD gives me any real benefit).

A buddy of mine and I have done HD DVD and BR side by side (most notably on 300 and Planet Earth), and you can't tell any difference. I guess if you bust out the lame ass bit rate meter on the Sony hardware to see that you're watching a higher 'quality' image, but honestly - if you need a bit rate meter to tell you what you are looking at is better (when your eyes can discern no difference), it isn't worth the premium in price that Sony wants you to believe.

And that's the bottom line.

[jaffies]

Just wanted to be in before the 'bump' post in the distant future to say that there is NO WAY that HD-DVD wins the war.


They might be around in the coming years, but will never nevernever be the outright winner.

[THE SIXTH MAN]

Your average Joe Pukepail going to Walmart doesn't know or give a crap about faster data rates.

True true. And they're going to go for the cheaper option as well.

[Slomo]

It's not really about HD DVD being nice to the consumer and Sony not, you're talking about the lesser of two evils.

Still, Sony's DRM sucks, and honestly I'm tired of them trying to force proprietary format after proprietary format on everyone (which only benefits them).

HD DVD gives me everything BR can as far as pic quality and audio for a fraction of the price. And I'm supposed to buy BR for twice the cost out of the goodness of my heart as a donation to Sony? that.

About the only area BR really has HD DVD is on data archiving disks, but honestly, for the cost of a couple of BR discs (let's not even get into the fact the burners out are 2x write speed ), I could have over a terabyte of hard drive backups at my disposal. Which makes more sense?

This whole thing comes down to greed, and frankly I'd rather not let it be Sony's that wins (particularly because I don't think the premium in price over HD DVD gives me any real benefit).

A buddy of mine and I have done HD DVD and BR side by side (most notably on 300 and Planet Earth), and you can't tell any difference. I guess if you bust out the lame ass bit rate meter on the Sony hardware to see that you're watching a higher 'quality' image, but honestly - if you need a bit rate meter to tell you what you are looking at is better (when your eyes can discern no difference), it isn't worth the premium in price that Sony wants you to believe.

And that's the bottom line.

AHF your hatred of all things SONY is well known and frankly I couldn't care less. Everybody has the right to like/hate anything as long as you don't present your opinions as facts I don't have a problem with it - and for the record you don't. You've always been quite frank about it.

My post was a response to a few posts where opinions were stated as facts.

I have had the doubious privilege to work with products from all the companies on my list. My relations with any of them were always as either a partner or user of their technology on a professioanl level - this is to say that we are often placed in the position of early adopters of new stuff. I have been doing this for more than 30 years now and I couldn't tell you which one of those is my favourite.

In my book the differences in how much they protect their proprietary stuff is depending on one factor alone: How much they can get away with.

I can tell you stories of nightmarish situation while building systems build on Sony tech (we even got sued once), but I have similar stories while working with panasonic, thomson or JVC. Of course I have had also a lot of success while selling sony stuff (and pana, and JVC...).

Based on all that I have stopped judging companies by their reputation as it is often wrong (in either direction). I now limit myself to talking about technology since it is the only thing you can evaluate objectively (well to a certain degree at least).

As for alternatives to BR/HD DVD they are a few but as long as the copyright holders do not forfeit those, you (and I) will not like the solutions.

Oh and one final thing, what you say in your example is very true but archiving is not a good application for BR (heck we're not even sure about the shelf life of CDs that are supposed to be a mature technology). The champion of archiving is still tape for a combination of reasons among them price, capacitiy and footprint.

[Wild Cobra]

I've read about that some where too. And I also heard that the blu ray disk is hard to maintain because it scratches very easily?

That's actually the part as to why they cost a few cents more to make. The surface gets treated to make it more scratch resistant. This protection I would think would make them more durable than not only HDDVD, byt regular DVD's as well.

[Ginobilly]

Who knows but it looks like bluray will win they have more studio support and more players out there.

560,000 HD DVD players compared to 370,000 bluray players but they're about 2.4 million PS3's in the US which are also bluray players. Also Panasonic and Sony are offering a free bluray player when you buy one of their 40+ HDTV's at best buy circuit city.

[Wild Cobra]

Just to give a heads-up, I must stay kind of vague on the subject because it is directly related to my job, and if I go into too much detail I start revealing proprietary information.

OTOH, understand that I pretty much know what the I'm talking about.

Give me a break. The differences are not significant enough to be as you imply, and the plastics are not that exotic.

I've dealt with proprietary information as well. In fact, in 1996, I was directly involved in doing the first CMP process on 300mm oxide wafers. Before that, I was entrusted with two of the very first bare silicon 300 mm wafers cut, worth over $10,000 each to tune the CMP process.

CMP is primarily used to reduce the step height so the optics can focus into a one hundred nanometer range across the wafer. Optics of DVD's really don't pose as much of a problem as you imply. I've dealt with having to deal with environments requireing far tighter specs than violet lasers used for the high def technologies. I'm not trying to say that my field directly correlates, but that I do understand the sciences involved.

You must be listening to company hype.

[jaffies]

The "war" just took a SHARP TURN towards being over!

USA Today: Warner Bros. goes Blu-ray exclusive

Reuters

TimeWarner.com

[Viva Las Espuelas]

The "war" just took a SHARP TURN towards being over!

USA Today: Warner Bros. goes Blu-ray exclusive

Reuters

TimeWarner.com

yeah that's pretty big. i thought the possible beginning of the end of the war was when blockbuster decided on blu-ray.

[Sportcamper]

Time Warner has supported both formats…This is a great move by Warner’s as they are trying to end this format war…

[Extra Stout]

Give me a break. The differences are not significant enough to be as you imply, and the plastics are not that exotic.

I've dealt with proprietary information as well. In fact, in 1996, I was directly involved in doing the first CMP process on 300mm oxide wafers. Before that, I was entrusted with two of the very first bare silicon 300 mm wafers cut, worth over $10,000 each to tune the CMP process.

CMP is primarily used to reduce the step height so the optics can focus into a one hundred nanometer range across the wafer. Optics of DVD's really don't pose as much of a problem as you imply. I've dealt with having to deal with environments requireing far tighter specs than violet lasers used for the high def technologies. I'm not trying to say that my field directly correlates, but that I do understand the sciences involved.

You must be listening to company hype.

The technology is not the problem. Yes, it would be possible at the right price to make the materials. The issue is that there is essentially no profit margin in making polycarbonate for DVD's, so suppliers are not eager to outlay that much money to support it. Sony is working on some specialty materials for the application.

[Medvedenko]

I heard that Microsoft will be releasing a new Xbox sku that will be have the HDDVD drive built in....I wonder if this news will impact them...if they could they should just release the player that plays both and say it.

[T Park]

There is a player that plays both.

Its made by LG.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Disappointing news. Props to Sony for buying Warner's exclusivity. Bad news for the consumer, though.

[jaffies]

Disappointing news. Props to Sony for buying Warner's exclusivity. Bad news for the consumer, though.

How is this bad for customers?
and who cares that Warner got paid? It's not like Toshiba wasn't bidding.

[Phenomanul]

No mention of Disney yet on this thread?

They've been exclusively Blu-Ray in this stalemate. Universal is the only major studio that's exclusively HD-DVD out of the Big Nine (Universal, Paramount, Warner Bros, Columbia, MGM, Disney, FOX, DreamWorks, New Line Cinema).

Also, no mention of the in-movie menu options on Blu-Ray which don't exist for HD-DVD. As in... I can watch the movie and change the options while the movie is still playing... no skipped beat.

Samsung's In-Motion technology (If you haven't seen movies played on these TV's you haven't witnessed the brilliance of 1080p movies) works way better with Blu-Ray movies than it does with HD-DVDs.

I have both... but personally I want BR to win out... that way the prices start coming down.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

How is this bad for customers?
and who cares that Warner got paid? It's not like Toshiba wasn't bidding.

How is it bad for consumers? You think paying twice the cost for players as HD DVD and on average $8 or so more for a BR movie than an HD DVD is good for the consumers?

I never said Toshiba wasn't bidding, just giving props to Sony for coming in with a ridiculous offer that Toshiba wouldn't match. $500 million to Warner to go BR, and another $200 mil to Fox to stay BR exclusive (when Warner and Fox were talking about both moving to HD DVD exclusivity).

You could get an HD DVD player for $200 and get 10 free movies with it, so as a consumer you got the hook up. Now you get to pay double that for any decent player, not to mention there's not even a BR profile (at least until profile 2.0 gets done) that matches all the interactivity that HD DVD has.

But like I said, it's all moot now. $700 million from Sony decided the format war. Great day for the consumer...

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I have both... but personally I want BR to win out... that way the prices start coming down.

I don't think you understand how Sony works, and given what it took for them to win this war, prices won't be coming down for a while.

[Phenomanul]

I don't think you understand how Sony works, and given what it took for them to win this war, prices won't be coming down for a while.

Perhaps, but I do understand the concept of supply and demand... The manufacturing roadblocks that Extra Stout alluded to earlier would disappear once the 'war' was swayed in favor of Blu-Ray Disc production.

Believe it or not the Chemicals Market (which I follow closely due to its ties with the PetroChemical Market) has a big stake in the outcome of this stalemate. The reason the production of the 'protective coating' that is employed on Blu-Ray discs has limited volume is because no one wants to invest in the construction of a manufacturing facility that would increase the throughput while the future of the finished product (Blu-Ray discs) still hangs in an air of uncertainty. If the outcome of 'format war' was known, they would then begin to lower the manufacturing costs for their production because more manufacturers would join the fray.

This has less to do with SONY or their corporate consumer philosophies than it does with the limitations imposed by the tight manufacturing market surrounding Blu-Ray Disc production. That is why HD-DVDs are cheaper to produce, because they are essentially using the same manufacturing facilities that produced regular DVDs. Conversely, that is why Blu-Rays are currently more expensive; again it has nothing to do with SONY wanting to rip the consumer off (anymore than the next guy)...

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Perhaps, but I do understand the concept of supply and demand... The manufacturing roadblocks that Extra Stout alluded to earlier would disappear once the 'war' was swayed in favor of Blu-Ray Disc production.

Believe it or not the Chemicals Market (which I follow closely due to its ties with the PetroChemical Market) has a big stake in the outcome of this stalemate. The reason the production of the 'protective coating' that is employed on Blu-Ray discs has limited volume is because no one wants to invest in the construction of a manufacturing facility that would increase the throughput while the future of the finished product (Blu-Ray discs) still hangs in an air of uncertainty. If the outcome of 'format war' was known, they would then begin to lower the manufacturing costs for their production because more manufacturers would join the fray.

This has less to do with SONY or their corporate consumer philosophies than it does with the limitations imposed by the tight manufacturing market surrounding Blu-Ray Disc production. That is why HD-DVDs are cheaper to produce, because they are essentially using the same manufacturing facilities that produced regular DVDs. Conversely, that is why Blu-Rays are currently more expensive; again it has nothing to do with SONY wanting to rip the consumer off (anymore than the next guy)...

Yes, and said facilities for manufacturing do not currently exist. Which means they will have to be built, which I think it's safe to say won't exactly be cheap. The last piece I read said it cost Sony something like $100 million to build the BR disc production plant that is currently manufacturing discs for them.

Do you honestly believe the costs for those facilities will not be passed on to the consumer for the foreseeable future?

[Phenomanul]

Yes, and said facilities for manufacturing do not currently exist. Which means they will have to be built, which I think it's safe to say won't exactly be cheap. The last piece I read said it cost Sony something like $100 million to build the BR disc production plant that is currently manufacturing discs for them.

Do you honestly believe the costs for those facilities will not be passed on to the consumer for the foreseeable future?

Yes, but it will rapidly be dwarfed by the number of other manufacturers who will want in (and in doing so those costs will ultimately be spread out). The outcome of this 'format war' will dictate whether or not Blu-Ray discs become viable products. Right now the consumer is paying more for that product than they would once it becomes the 'standard format'.

Manufacturing history backs up my claim (as this was the case with fiber-optic cable, tungsten filament lightbulbs, computer chips, etc...)

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Yes, but it will rapidly be dwarfed by the number of other manufacturers who will want in (and in doing so those costs will ultimately be spread out). The outcome of this 'format war' will dictate whether or not Blu-Ray discs become viable products. Right now the consumer is paying more for that product than they would once it becomes the 'standard format'.

Manufacturing history backs up my claim (as this was the case with fiber-optic cable, tungsten filament lightbulbs, computer chips, etc...)

All those things mentioned were mass adoption products on a global scale.

HD media is still a niche market (basically about 2% of the market compared to 98% of the market for regular DVDs).

Sony had been subsidizing the BR disc production costs for all studios producing BR content. I don't see them continuing to do that now with the format war essentially over, and like I said - someone's going to be paying the cost of all those production lines - and you can bet it won't be the studios. It will be passed on to the consumer.

So go ahead with all the virtual high fives, and be prepared to be raped by Sony and co. for years to come (remember they kept selling their UMD discs at $30 a pop for the PSP until recently). Sony's still got to recoup about 7 billion in R&D costs on BR, and that's not even getting into the payoffs for Disney, Fox, Lionsgate, and Warner. In short, pass the vaseline.

Edit: by the way, on the news yesterday, Sony has bumped the price back up on its standalone players - the BDP-S300 back up to 399.99 from 299.99 everywhere today. Yep, prices *obviously* will go down with this announcement

[maxpower]

No compe ion = consumer wins.

[Burn531]

No mention of Disney yet on this thread?

They've been exclusively Blu-Ray in this stalemate. Universal is the only major studio that's exclusively HD-DVD out of the Big Nine (Universal, Paramount, Warner Bros, Columbia, MGM, Disney, FOX, DreamWorks, New Line Cinema).

I thought Paramount is HD DVD exclusive? Didn't Toshiba pay them $150 mill back in the summer?