Can a relationship survive this?

[mrsmaalox]

Tough situation. The first thing she needs to do is ask him what happens if she decides not to terminate and go from there. Really they already decided to have kids, so now the schedule is just altered. And if he can't handle a major schedule change now, can he in 3 years? What's going to be the reason then? Well we need to pay off the car,etc. They are fooling themselves if they think there will ever be a perfect time.
I personally would feel very hurt and betrayed if the man I loved, the man who wanted to be part of my life, good or bad, didn't just say "Hey, we love each other and we can make it work. Everything's gonna be okay." I don't think I could stay with him. Also I don't believe he should stick around out of a feeling of obligation to her or the kid. Kids always figure that kind of thing out and it's just not fair to anyone involved.

[Shelly]

On an abstract level, isn't this a sign of how materially focussed we have become (to a large extent out of necessity)? It has become so expensive to live, let alone raise kids, that people have to base their important life decisions almost entirely on finances, although in her case it's also about career. if they didn't have financial pressure, this would be a much easier decision, but because they have to worry about money too, it could destroy their relationship.

It was a big financial strain on us. My husband's school was private and we had to take out student loans to pay for that and survive. Our rent was like $1000/mo for an okay place and this was in 92-96, so Lord know what it would be like now. Obviously, my husband wasn't working during this time.

It can be done.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

My e-self falls into all three of the catogeries. Well, let me ask a serious question: When did she become pregnant and how long has it been since then.

IMHO if it's really early in the pregenancy then there should be no moral guilt, because it's isn't even considered human, there are no major organ developing etc..., if there is moral guilt in that, then there should be guilt in the morning after pill and other contraceptives.

Anti-abortionists will tell you that a foetus is human from the moment it is conceived, so it all depends on your beliefs. They will also tell you that the morning after pill is evil, although I don't agree. And the foreign policy of your federal government is predicated on no contraception (the US will not fund sex ed programs that advocate condom use, or use of any other contraceptives), so they obviously have a moral problem with it, although I think that denying people sex education and condoms on the basis of religious beliefs is far more evil than any contraceptive ever could be.

Unfortunately, the definition of "what is a human being" is a conundrum that philosophy and science have struggled with for the last 500 years and there is no universal answer.

[easjer]

Yeah, at udes to things do change when they actually occur, but if you've had the conversation at least you have a starting point. He made a big mistake in telling her to terminate - that's just a horrible thing to say to a woman and she may resent him for it regardless of her decision.

Good luck to them, glad I'm not in their situation.

On an abstract level, isn't this a sign of how materially focussed we have become (to a large extent out of necessity)? It has become so expensive to live, let alone raise kids, that people have to base their important life decisions almost entirely on finances, although in her case it's also about career. if they didn't have financial pressure, this would be a much easier decision, but because they have to worry about money too, it could destroy their relationship.

That right there is why we had to push off trying to start our family for at least a year. Hard and painful decision to make, but ultimately the right one, because when we laid it out, we simply could not afford everything when you factored in daycare and monthly insurance premiums. I mean, you don't have to buy $1200 cribs and designer clothes and you can save money using cloth diapers and breastfeeding - but damn, kids are expensive.

[AFBlue]

On an abstract level, isn't this a sign of how materially focussed we have become (to a large extent out of necessity)? It has become so expensive to live, let alone raise kids, that people have to base their important life decisions almost entirely on finances, although in her case it's also about career. if they didn't have financial pressure, this would be a much easier decision, but because they have to worry about money too, it could destroy their relationship.

"Financial pressure" as you put it is almost entirely self-imposed.

What I mean to say is that there are very few basic needs that are required in life and that the decisions we make for things beyond those needs are entirely up to us.

For example....

A military member making $30K, but driving a used car and living on base, has the "financial stability" to support at least one child...and comfortably.

On the other hand, a doctor making $200K, but driving a Maserati and living in Beverly Hills, barely has the "financial stability" to support himself.

Bottom Line: Our "lifestyle" is almost entirely of our choosing.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

It was a big financial strain on us. My husband's school was private and we had to take out student loans to pay for that and survive. Our rent was like $1000/mo for an okay place and this was in 92-96, so Lord know what it would be like now. Obviously, my husband wasn't working during this time.

It can be done.

Yeah, just read your post. I guess this is a true test of the strength of a relationship. You guys obviously passed with flying colours!

[E20]

Unfortunately, the definition of "what is a human being" is a conundrum that philosophy and science have struggled with for the last 500 years and there is no universal answer.

Everybody has their own personal defintion. IMO The best way to do is lay out all the facts and form your own belief/opnion that you feel satisfied with. (About fetus's / when is it actually human)

[duncan228]

... but damn, kids are expensive.

For many, many years.
And as they grow the expenses grow.

And they're worth every penny and every sacrifice to make it work.

[easjer]

"Financial pressure" as you put it is almost entirely self-imposed.

What I mean to say is that there are very few basic needs that are required in life and that the decisions we make for things beyond those needs are entirely up to us.

For example....

A military member making $30K, but driving a used car and living on base, has the "financial stability" to support at least one child...and comfortably.

On the other hand, a doctor making $200K, but driving a Maserati and living in Beverly Hills, barely has the "financial stability" to support himself.

Bottom Line: Our "lifestyle" is almost entirely of our choosing.

I think this is true to an extent. Obviously, there are things we like in our life that we weren't willing to exchange in order to have a baby last year. One example might be cable television. Not a necessity, but important enough to us to balance with our desire for children.

But factor in something like daycare - I have friends who have to pay over $1600 a month for daycare (nearly twice my mortgage payment) - because of the area of the country they live in. But because of the money inflow-outflow in their families and how the insurance was divided, they truly could not afford to have children - they couldn't afford for both to work or one to stay home.

But then, I suppose the argument could be made that being a teacher in a HCOL is their choice, and that they could move to a lower col area. But that's not always feasible either.

Damn, life is always so ing complicated.

[Shelly]

For many, many years.
And as they grow the expenses grow.

And they're worth every penny and every sacrifice to make it work.

Until they become teenagers! Then you start wondering why you ever became a mother!!

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

"Financial pressure" as you put it is almost entirely self-imposed.

What I mean to say is that there are very few basic needs that are required in life and that the decisions we make for things beyond those needs are entirely up to us.

For example....

A military member making $30K, but driving a used car and living on base, has the "financial stability" to support at least one child...and comfortably.

On the other hand, a doctor making $200K, but driving a Maserati and living in Beverly Hills, barely has the "financial stability" to support himself.

Bottom Line: Our "lifestyle" is almost entirely of our choosing.

Tony, I utterly agree with you, and I wish more people saw it that way. I live a wonderful lifestyle that costs me very little because I am not really a consumer of much beyond food. My budget is about $15,000 a year including all bills, food etc etc. But so many people see luxuries as "needs" today.

I guess what I meant is that today people will often choose material comfort first and want everything else (such as when they plan to have kids) to fit with that... in this case, they have a tough choice to make because the timing is not to their schedule, but if they want each other and the child enough they could certainly do it, just as S y and her hubby did.

[duncan228]

Until they become teenagers! Then you start wondering why you ever became a mother!!

My youngest turned 13 last week.
My oldest will be 18 next month.
Two teenagers under my roof at once.

There are days I do wonder.

[easjer]

Tony, I utterly agree with you, and I wish more people saw it that way. I live a wonderful lifestyle that costs me very little because I am not really a consumer of much beyond food. My budget is about $15,000 a year including all bills, food etc etc. But so many people see luxuries as "needs" today.

I guess what I meant is that today people will often choose material comfort first and want everything else (such as when they plan to have kids) to fit with that... in this case, they have a tough choice to make because the timing is not to their schedule, but if they want each other and the child enough they could certainly do it, just as S y and her hubby did.

And we are back to the original question. I have no doubt that if they made the effort, they could do as S y and many others have done and make do.

But can a relationship survive when one person doesn't want to be in the situation they are in? Can it survive his asking her to get an abortion? Or will there always be lingering doubts and resentments and fears?

I suppose, as previously mentioned, it comes down to communication and honesty and trust.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Everybody has their own personal defintion. IMO The best way to do is lay out all the facts and form your own belief/opnion that you feel satisfied with. (About fetus's / when is it actually human)

Sure, I agree, but you said "...if it's really early in the pregenancy then there should be no moral guilt, because it's isn't even considered human", and I was just pointing out that many people would disagree with you that a foetus isn't human. Personally, I have no problem with abortion, but many people do primarily because they believe a foetus is a human being...

...and this is territory we were trying to avoid...

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

And we are back to the original question. I have no doubt that if they made the effort, they could do as S y and many others have done and make do.

But can a relationship survive when one person doesn't want to be in the situation they are in? Can it survive his asking her to get an abortion? Or will there always be lingering doubts and resentments and fears?

I suppose, as previously mentioned, it comes down to communication and honesty and trust.

Yes, we have come full circle, loops within loops within loops!

And you nailed it - honesty, trust, communication. Good luck to them.

[easjer]

Sure, I agree, but you said "...if it's really early in the pregenancy then there should be no moral guilt, because it's isn't even considered human", and I was just pointing out that many people would disagree with you that a foetus isn't human. Personally, I have no problem with abortion, but many people do primarily because they believe a foetus is a human being...

...and this is territory we were trying to avoid...

Eh, argue away, you just won't get anywhere with it. There is no legitimate way to answer the question of when life begins or is worth something, because it's about personal belief, and legally (and to some extent, morally) you cannot impose your beliefs on someone else, when it involves their bodies and their lives.

I became pro-choice in a very roundabout method, as you might divine from the above.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Eh, argue away, you just won't get anywhere with it. There is no legitimate way to answer the question of when life begins or is worth something, because it's about personal belief, and legally (and to some extent, morally) you cannot impose your beliefs on someone else, when it involves their bodies and their lives.

I became pro-choice in a very roundabout method, as you might divine from the above.

And E20 made the same comment that it's an utterly personal decision. I agree. I just had to point out the emboldened bit in what he said because someone could front him over that if he says it to the wrong person. He said it as if it were an objective fact, not an assumption on his part and a part of his personal opinion.

[Shelly]

My youngest turned 13 last week.
My oldest will be 18 next month.
Two teenagers under my roof at once.

There are days I do wonder.

15 next month and 12.

There are days I want to drink my breakfast

Back to the original question...I'm sure the "OMG, how did this happen" factor went into overdrive at first, so after it's fully sunk in, they need to sit down and figure out what to do. But if she's always going to resent that fact that he asked her to terminate...whether she does or not...then no, they will not survive.

When are they supposed to get married?

[AFBlue]

I think this is true to an extent. Obviously, there are things we like in our life that we weren't willing to exchange in order to have a baby last year. One example might be cable television. Not a necessity, but important enough to us to balance with our desire for children.

Oh, don't get me wrong...I'm not saying that people should forfeit everything outside of the "Needs" category and have a bunch of babies. Nor am I saying that people, including you, should feel bad for making trade-offs that prevent them from having and raising a child.

I'm just saying that if they wanted to make trade-offs in favor of having a child, for the most part they could.

For your situation (holding off for a year), it's obvious that you and your significant other discussed the situation (step #1) and that you agreed what would be the ideal situation. I think you've obviously handled the situation well. Your friend with the issue is another story...and I wish her the best with her decision.

[easjer]

15 next month and 12.

There are days I want to drink my breakfast

Back to the original question...I'm sure the "OMG, how did this happen" factor went into overdrive at first, so after it's fully sunk in, they need to sit down and figure out what to do. But if she's always going to resent that fact that he asked her to terminate...whether she does or not...then no, they will not survive.

When are they supposed to get married?

June.

They've been together for . . . I can't remember how long. Living together for at least 3 years.

I don't know if she'll always resent it or not. I know she resents it at this moment, because it puts an enormous pressure on her. I don't think she'd ever for a moment considered termination. Certainly her conversations with me were of the shocked OMG, how the did this happen? variety, with references to how she would have to put off law school for at least a year (her school is fall admission only, and she'd be giving birth around the same time school started). So I think the same shock factor that prompted him to ask is the same shock she feels about being asked, if that makes sense.

[AFBlue]

And we are back to the original question. I have no doubt that if they made the effort, they could do as S y and many others have done and make do.

But can a relationship survive when one person doesn't want to be in the situation they are in? Can it survive his asking her to get an abortion? Or will there always be lingering doubts and resentments and fears?

I suppose, as previously mentioned, it comes down to communication and honesty and trust.

Love is a pretty big one that you forgot.

You can get through ALOT of with love.

About this situation, I think she should be a little selfish and do what she feels is right for her.

If that means she'd have the baby, then I would hope that this guy embraces the role of being a father and that they work through whatever financial hiccups may come without him throwing the "lawyer" thing in her face.

[Shelly]

June.

They've been together for . . . I can't remember how long. Living together for at least 3 years.

I don't know if she'll always resent it or not. I know she resents it at this moment, because it puts an enormous pressure on her. I don't think she'd ever for a moment considered termination. Certainly her conversations with me were of the shocked OMG, how the did this happen? variety, with references to how she would have to put off law school for at least a year (her school is fall admission only, and she'd be giving birth around the same time school started). So I think the same shock factor that prompted him to ask is the same shock she feels about being asked, if that makes sense.

Someone close to me, married at the time, terminated a pregnancy soon after the second child was born (first two are only 14 months apart). She did end up having another child a few years later, but that was the beginning of the end for them. Other situations factored into the divorce. However, even though it was a mutual decision, it always weighed heavily on her mind.

[Shelly]

Of course, every situation is different.

[Sapphire]

Survive? Yes.

Thrive? No.

That resentment will grow like a cancer and one day it will kill the marriage. But the days leading up to the death will be days full of hurt and anger. This is not a happy situation at all, obviously. It's so sad for the children conceived this way--when the two people who created said child are not completely overjoyed at what they've done there will always be pain. Sure, she can take the chance that "Daddy" will fall in love with the child once it comes, but, wow, that's a huge chance to take, IMO.

Me? I would dump the guy, forgo law school for now, have the baby, and get on with it. He screwed up, but better to find out now that he's a heartless SOB. Heartless, you may ask? Yes, anyone who loves their things more than they love their kids is, to me, heartless. This kid is interfering in his plans to acquire more things. Bottom line.

[easjer]

Oh, don't get me wrong...I'm not saying that people should forfeit everything outside of the "Needs" category and have a bunch of babies. Nor am I saying that people, including you, should feel bad for making trade-offs that prevent them from having and raising a child.

I'm just saying that if they wanted to make trade-offs in favor of having a child, for the most part they could.

For your situation (holding off for a year), it's obvious that you and your significant other discussed the situation (step #1) and that you agreed what would be the ideal situation. I think you've obviously handled the situation well. Your friend with the issue is another story...and I wish her the best with her decision.

No, I understand. I mean to say something more and sidetracked myself. I was going to add that if it is necessary, things can frequently be done to better prepare financially for children or adapt. If we found out I was pregnant tomorrow, well, we'd cancel the cable and internet and put that money towards paying off the debt and Jason would probably get a second job. We just didn't want to live that way, and didn't want that stress on our relationship or in our lives.

Of course, good financial situation always has to be balanced against things like biological clocks and emotional readiness. What is the point of waiting for the perfect financial situation if it means you wait until you are in your late 30's (for women) and end up unable to get pregnant and have a harder time adopting because you are outside ideal adoption ranges?

I think you are totally right about people not seeing where they can cut back and afford children, if not the lifestyle they would prefer. I remember one woman from the internets (baby website) that was complaining about how she couldn't afford kids and what was she going to do? and she was completely aghast when several of us suggested that they sell the extra car, pay off their debt, cancel their extensive cable package or cut back to basic, breastfeed (I particularly remember her aversion to b/fing - not to start any debates here on it - because she liked her perky boobs and b/fing would ruin them), and cloth diaper. She wanted to know where she could get foodstamps instead. Frustrating, to say the least.