DAYYUM IAN!!! (look at his line last night)

[timvp]

I guess that he isn't a crappy prospect like most people have said here only by looking at his euro stats.

Almost everyone was excited when the Spurs brought Mahinmi in. There might have been a couple people who had given up on him but no more than a handful.

He was actually matched up with Gadson for much of the game, though everyone got a chance to be destroyed by Almond.

Really? Why the heck wouldn't Washington and Gadson be matched up with Kruger and Hamilton? With Williams, Bowen and even Johnson at his disposal, Snyder put a skinny point guard on Almond? If he wanted to put a point guard on Almond, at least put Washington on him. Then again Snyder isn't exactly known for being a defensive mastermind.

Pop's fatal flaw, the same as Larry Brown, is that he doesn't understand how to coach young, impressionable players.

I never heard that criticism of Pop before. He's actually one of the best at sticking with young players through thick and thin.

If a young player was worthy of playing time, Pop has given that young player minutes. If you show talent and that you care, Pop isn't going to let you rot.

Pop went with Malik Rose early in Rose's career even though Pop had a number of older players to fall back on if he wanted. He went with Stephen Jackson even though early in the 2003 season Jackson was horrible. Speedy came in and was given the reins from the get go. Pop went with AD as a young player even though he had a player like Kerr to fall back on. He gave Devin Brown every shot to win the backup job over Brent Barry until Devin hurt his back.

The only young players Pop hasn't had success with over the years have turned out to be either not good enough to make it anywhere else or didn't have the makeup to play for a championship contender. I don't see any blatant failures in Pop's resume. And Darius Washington is an undrafted rookie in the beginning of his first year with the team. Waaaaay too early to be making any judgment calls regarding him.

[ChumpDumper]

Really? Why the heck wouldn't Washington and Gadson be matched up with Kruger and Hamilton? With Williams, Bowen and even Johnson at his disposal, Snyder put a skinny point guard on Almond? If he wanted to put a point guard on Almond, at least put Washington on him. Then again Snyder isn't exactly known for being a defensive mastermind.

While Langford is out, Cheyne usually starts at shooting guard. The Toros' MO is to not switch defensive assignments until they feel they have to. After the disastrous first quarter, they had to. Mo got several Toros into foul trouble, so I'm not sure how much difference it would have made unless they designated Bowen to cover him all the time like DJ used to. Of course, under him the Toros got smoked by Clay Tucker for the exact same amount of points. These things happen.

[Bruno]

Almost everyone was excited when the Spurs brought Mahinmi in. There might have been a couple people who had given up on him but no more than a handful.

You should have missed Mahinmi's bashing during the whole last year when he was sucking in Europe.
And the Mahinmi signing has generate almost no reaction here.

[thekingrobert]

darius rice's 52 is the record

[ChumpDumper]

I'm pretty sure they're talking about the regular season.

[JPB]

You should have missed Mahinmi's bashing during the whole last year when he was sucking in Europe.
And the Mahinmi signing has generate almost no reaction here.

I agree.
He was categorized as just a foul prone big guy with no offense.
And few people ever saw him play.

That's why his signing didn't generate many reactions.
The general opinion was that he was meant to be sent in D-league where hopefully he could learn 2 or 3 things.

The excitement appeared only during the pre-season when he showed promising things.

[ChumpDumper]

Please don't get all Slogentinian on us.

[picnroll]

I missed all these slew of bad mouthing of Mahinmi posts. Since he wasn't getting any playing time he was pretty much ignored although it's hard to get excited about or overly enthused about a player who can't get on the floor for a struggling Euroleague team.

Only the most myopic Spurs player prospect fan could see Ian as more than a D-league player this year. You don't go from the bench of a Euroleague team to playing a role on a defending NBA champ. Most fans were/are in a wait and see mode on Mahinmi based on his play so far.

[whottt]

I agree with the sentiment that WAshington just isn't good enough to warrant heavy minute from Pop right now...he's not as good as Parker and Vaughn yet...and he likely won't anytime soon unless gets PT.


I don't think Pop dislikes him...he just doesn't have to play him yet, so he won't.

[whottt]

I missed all these slew of bad mouthing of Mahinmi posts. Since he wasn't getting any playing time he was pretty much ignored although it's hard to get excited about or overly enthused about a player who can't get on the floor for a struggling Euroleague team.

They do it differently in Europe....

They tend to give veterans more respect, there's more emphaisis on fundamental play than there is on athleticism...

Plus, they don't particularly like their role as a development league for the NBA, they aren't going to invest a lot in guys that aren't going to be around for a while IMO. Unless they guy is really good and can immediately contribute to winning.

I have no proof of this...but that just seems to be the way they do it....in particular with draft picks of NBA teams.

[ChumpDumper]

I agree with the sentiment that WAshington just isn't good enough to warrant heavy minute from Pop right now...he's not as good as Parker and Vaughn yet...and he likely won't anytime soon unless gets PT.


I don't think Pop dislikes him...he just doesn't have to play him yet, so he won't.

I think Pop really likes the guy. He really looked like he was working closely with him in the brief training camp film I saw. If the way he's been using Vaughn lately is any indication, Pop wants to be able to have a point guard attacking the basket at all times. Darius needs to work on his decision-making off his drives, and finishing at the NBA level will be more challenging than it is in Austin -- but Darius has the right mentality and basic tools. He's worth keeping around the rest of the season, but mainly on the Toros squad.

[ShoogarBear]

Plus, they don't particularly like their role as a development league for the NBA, they aren't going to invest a lot in guys that aren't going to be around for a while IMO. Unless they guy is really good and can immediately contribute to winning.

I have no proof of this...but that just seems to be the way they do it....in particular with draft picks of NBA teams.

That's an interesting thought. In the European league, if you're not an established player could being an NBA draft pick work against you in terms of getting playing time?

[whottt]

That's an interesting thought. In the European league, if you're not an established player could being an NBA draft pick work against you in terms of getting playing time?

I think so...unless the guy is already an integral part of the team.

I think that's clearly what happened with Ian...he's much better than he appeared to be last season.

I think it might also be the case with Javtokas...Javtokas is clearly one of the most athletic bigmen in Europe and played well when matched up with guys like Oberto and Scola...the fact that he jumps to a team and all of a sudden can't play...I think it's a got a lot to do with a lack of minutes.


IF you think about it...what really is the incentive for the Euroleague teams to put a whole lot of effort into developing a young player already drafted by an NBA team...they get nothing out of doing it really. So why would they do it?


Scola was already installed with Tau and he was on a multi year deal...Splitter they are playing because he's good enough to contribute something this year.


I just think that's the way they do it...it makes sense they'd do it that way....for their own benefit, and also so they don't alienate veterans who are going to be career Euroleague players. You have a guy that's going to be part of your team for a long time because he's not viewed as an NBA level talent...behind him is a young guy who will eventually be a better player, but who is also likely headed to the NBA as soon as he shows anything...

Why disrepesct the old vet guy, who can help you win more now, to serve as a developmental team for an NBA player that won't be there beyond this season?


Plus...if the guys minutes are limited he perhaps maybe loses confidence...maybe doesn't want to wait to get paid, so he signs a longterm deal with the Euroleague team instead.


Makes sense to me...


There's just not much incentive for European teams to do that for guys on one year contracts...the NBA teams aren't paying them for doing it...the veteran guys can do more to help win right now...and since these teams do have to stay in business....


I can't say I'd blame them for doing it that way either.

[Bruno]

Slogentinian

[picnroll]

They do it differently in Europe....

They tend to give veterans more respect, there's more emphaisis on fundamental play than there is on athleticism...

Plus, they don't particularly like their role as a development league for the NBA, they aren't going to invest a lot in guys that aren't going to be around for a while IMO. Unless they guy is really good and can immediately contribute to winning.

I have no proof of this...but that just seems to be the way they do it....in particular with draft picks of NBA teams.

Early in the season for Pau they were giving Ian minutes, believe he was even starting but he work himself entirely out of the rotation. If the player has game he seems to get PT, look at the 16 year old Rubio, Barnangni, Fernandez.

[Bruno]

The whole story about Mahinmi last year is :

- Pau-Orthez didn't sign Mahinmi as a project but as a player who will help them one year before going in nba. Mahinmi in 05-06 was a productive player in French League with Le Havre. Mahinmi signed as Pau's backup center behind an American player called Hiram Fuller.

- At the last second Pau didn't sign Hiram Fuller.

- Instead of signing another center, Pau's staff decided to give the starting spot to Mahinmi. They trusted him enough to do that after his good summer league with Spurs and his good games with French second NT.

- Mahinmi sucked badly as starting center while he should have been decent after his good 05-06 year and his good summer. We will never know why he was that bad but it should be a combination of being in a new team with a new coach, having too much pressure on him, not being mentally ready to be the starting center for an Euroleague team and the fact that eh missed the start of the training camp because of an injury.

- After one month, Pau had bad results and they decided to sign a new starting center (Michael Wright). It's quite logical given that their first goal is to win games. Losing game to develop a young player who will leave the team in one year makes no sense to them.

- Mahinmi was now Pau's backup center and didn't play a lot because Pau had a crowded roster. He was then in a mental slump after the first failure in his basketball career and his relationship with his coach wasn't very good. Mahinmi was clearly lost on the court.

- At the end of the season, Pau has had some injuries, Mahinmi get more playing time and played better but it was nothing fancy.


What whottt say is half true. Mahinmi get a great chance as they gave him a starting spot. However, they pretty much gave up on him when he failed.

[timvp]

Bruno, will you please stop bashing Mahinmi from last year -- you are going to upset Bruno.

[Bruno]

Javtokas is clearly one of the most athletic bigmen in Europe and played well when matched up with guys like Oberto and Scola...the fact that he jumps to a team and all of a sudden can't play...I think it's a got a lot to do with a lack of minutes.

Javtokas not playing last year with Panathinaikos has a lot to do with the coach and the way to play of the team. It's like Kurt Thomas not playing with Suns.
Another reason why he didn't play a lot was because he isn't that good and Panathinaikos was the best team in Europe ( ask KBP ).
This year, Javtokas is with another team (Dynamo Moscow) and get consistent playing time.

[Bruno]

Bruno, will you please stop bashing Mahinmi from last year -- you are going to upset Bruno.

I was just surprised to see people calling him a crappy prospect because he had a bad season and without trying to know why he was bad and without watching him play.

And I didn't say that Mahinmi will become a good nba player, he could end up as a nba bust. I just say that these good games in D-League obviously show that he isn't the player with no chance to contribute one day to a nba team as some people have said last year.

[whottt]

Javtokas not playing last year with Panathinaikos has a lot to do with the coach and the way to play of the team. It's like Kurt Thomas not playing with Suns.
Another reason why he didn't play a lot was because he isn't that good and Panathinaikos was the best team in Europe ( ask KBP ).
This year, Javtokas is with another team (Dynamo Moscow) and get consistent playing time.

I'm going to disagree with the sentiment that Javtokas isn't that good...he may not be the NBA talent that I and others thought him to be...but he did just fine matched up against the best C's in Europe the last time he played for Lithuania. By Euruleague standards he's a good C...better than than the PT he got last season.

[ChumpDumper]

BTW - this Toros/Flash game will be shown on NBAtv Saturday the 29th, so we can all see Ian's performance and see how they tried to cover Almond. I'm keen to see for myself since I missed much of radio call and web scoring.

[whottt]

Early in the season for Pau they were giving Ian minutes, believe he was even starting but he work himself entirely out of the rotation.

Yeap...and once they realized he wasn't going to be able to help them win that season...he was dumped.

And that's why the Spurs brought him over...

In no way contradicts my earlier point.

If the player has game he seems to get PT, look at the 16 year old Rubio, Barnangni, Fernandez.

A player that young is still on average 5 years away from the NBA...that's a lot of use they can get out of him...plus it develops their own homegrown talent...I mean they have to do that, how else are they going to be developed? Plus...there's a chance they can sign them to a longterm deal still...like Luis Scola for instance. Not NBA property yet...not a case of being a year away from the NBA like I mentioned.

To me it's not hard to see the motivations of the Euroleague teams. It's a business for them too...and by and large they want to be compe ors to the NBA...not it's developmental league.

[Darkwaters]

What the Spurs need to do is buy an overseas team. It doesn't even need to be a Euroleague team (although, that is preferred) but can be simply a team in one of the better leagues in France or Spain. Players they intend to develop over a longer period of time can be signed by (or traded to) the foreign subsidiary (I imagine a draftee like Marcus Williams would be more comfortable with going to Europe if it was a Spurs owned and operated team). Americans and foreigners alike could make their way to Europe for development. The Toros could then be used for development of players already on the roster in need of additional time on court. Both teams could monitor and develop talent on their own rosters with the potential to make the jump to San Antonio.

I wonder, how much would a struggling Euroleague team cost? A fair amount I imagine, but still a worthy investment.

[Spurs16212]

51 points on 35 shots is not too too bad... It could have been worse. He did shoot over 50% from the field. I liked Morris Almond from his college days at Rice and was hoping that he would fall to where maybe the Spurs could draft him. With Brent and Michael Finley leaving in the near future, he could have filled that void.

[mathbzh]

Ian didn't sruggled that much last year. He had injuries, was not ready to be the starting C in Euroleague team and was foul prone but the main problem is that expectations were way to high for him.
Actually he was productive given his PT 4.3 pt (51%FG 70% FT) 3.2 rbds 0.7 blks in just 12 minutes is not bad for a 19 yo player.

There is a reason why European teams don't like giving PT to young players when they are not ready: They need too win games.
Here, when you lose games you are not rewarded with a high lottery pick, you just go down to a lower league. When you won your national championship, you also won a ticket for the euroleague and the money coming with this ticket.
Actually this is the same reason why rookies can start in Seattle and not in SA.