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If you guys are going to say the LA Lakers have 15 les...then Mikan's jersey needs to be up in the rafters. Because without him ya'll don't have 15.
Basically there are 3 criteria which get jerseys retired
Greatness
Career with one team player, embodiment of the Team type player who was beloved by fans.
Tragedy or Inspiration
Most guys at least have a strong case in one of those 3 criteria...usually 2. AJ's got a weak case in two of them and those are combined to equal one criteria on the part of those who claim he was deserving.
It is unsual to see a guy like Avery Johnson get his jersey retired and the cir stances behind his being retired are relatively unique in all of pro sports. He's basically getting in under the embodiment of the team criteria...only half his career was spent with other teams and he didn't leave town on the best of terms....
There is a 4th criteria...PR stunt to put butts in the seats for a financially struggling franchise...but that one is rare and usually the player fits at least one other major criteria. Johnny Moore kind of got in using that one....in addition to Tragedy and Career qualifiactions. It could be said that Johnny Moore is really the only guy who fit all 4 of the criteria.
He was a great PG by our standards then.
He did spend the majority of his career with the team. And for a brief moment he was the franchise.
He did have his career tragically cut short.
And his jersey retirement was something of a PR stunt.
If you guys are going to say the LA Lakers have 15 les...then Mikan's jersey needs to be up in the rafters. Because without him ya'll don't have 15.
YES.Don't you think they're insulting a lot of former Spurs players by retiring AJ's number?
Excellent point. You can't claim the les without recognizing Mikan, Slater Martin, Jim Pollard et al.
Personally I'd rather see them leave Mikan's jersey unretired and just stop saying they have 15 les...10 is easier to catch
Oh, they'll never do that, because they're trying to catch the Celtics.
The criteria is you used to play for the Spurs and now you play for some other team that will compete with you in the same division. Luis Scola is next hehehe.
We never claimed to have 15 les! It's 14They should retire his number just on General principals. I agree.
I do agree!
Alvin has no chance.
But I have always been wondering why Mike Mitc was left out. He was a phenomenal player for almost a decade for the Spurs.
Larry Kenon, however, enjoyed a relatively short stinct with the Spurs - only 5 seasons.
Alvin Robertson's jersey number will be retired; it will just have Tim Duncan's name on it.
How was 00 a PR stunt?
I think Moore's legacy in San Antonio is mostly due to his UT ties. If he went to any other school, his jersey wouldn't have been retired. UT kid who overcame Desert Fever was good enough to retire his jersey, I guess.
I think, given the existing criteria, that Kenon, at least, is long overdue. Kenon's statistical resume is as good as or better than Elliott's (sans the kidney transplant and an opponent crushing shot in a conference final). Though he's not in the Top 10 in games played, he's still 7th in franchise history in points (Gervin, Robinson, Duncan, Mitc , Elliott, and Parker are in front of him) and 5th in rebounds. He has one of the 11 50-point games by a Spurs player (Gervin had 5, Dave had 3, and mings and Duncan have the other 2). He was a 2-time All-Star while with the Spurs as well. The strike against Kenon, I think, is that he accomplished all of that in only 4 NBA seasons with the Spurs and only played 5 years for the organization. Retiring Kenon is a lot like thinking about retiring Terry mings' number -- each was instrumental for a few years on some really good Spurs' teams, but neither sustained that level of play for very long with the Spurs. I think the lack of longevity will ensure that Kenon never gets the honor and does in mings too, but of all retired ex-Spurs, I think those two1 might deserve it the most.
Mitc has the longevity and was a huge part of getting the Spurs to consecutive conference finals in 82 and 83 and is still the 4th most prolific scorer in franchise history. But, Mitc was never The Man for the Spurs -- the 2 years that he topped the scoring chart for the club, they were pretty bad. Mitch never made an All-Star team as a Spur (though Gervin and Robertson each made multiple All-Star teams while playing with Mitc ). While he was on good teams early in his Spurs career, that faded pretty quickly -- after his 2nd year in SA -- and he was stuck on some pretty bad teams by the end of his stay in SA (save for his brief resurrection for the 1990 Playoffs). You can get into the rafters as the second (or third) banana if you play on extremely successful teams or have your career cut short by some sort of terrible injury, I think, but Mitc doesn't really have either of those things in his favor.
Good Christ! Compared with the Lakers, every team in the NBA is significantly underwhelming in whose jersey they've retired. No way is it a fair argument with those names you reeled off.
Internally, its unfair for the big 3, Gervin, Robinson, and Duncan to be viewed in equal terms with the likes of Avery Johnson. Come to think of it, as much as he had to do with the 1999 ring, he was even more responsible for the wretched officiating in 2006 which cost the Spurs their le in that season...but I digress.
Thank god Elliott's happy as a local broadcaster and not the coach of the Rockets!
And to top it off.....Alvin wore the same number as Duncan does today.
This is no contest. it will be retire, but with the name Duncan on it, not Robertson.
Didn't even think of it...but now that you mention it, Robertson will never be retired a Spur:
And you just answered your own right there. That was in the midst of one of their rare Austin marketing attempts...during a period when they were holding scrimmages in Austin from to time. It was at a period when they had just come out of nearly being forced to leave SA and the Admiral was in the middle of righting that ship, they had a product to push, it was the dawn of the basketball on cable era and for the first time you could catch Spurs games pretty regularly in Austin. I think it was HSE network...plus TNT was just getting into the basketball bizz.
Digression: It's lame as that no station in Austin has local broadcast rights to Spurs game...the KENS singal has not reached greater Austin since about 1975.
The Spurs are not bigger in Austin because you can't catch their games, without cable, and even if you hav cable...you don't get that many games.
I don't know why KENS doesn't have some kind of sub distribution rights here....but that's hurt the Spurs in Austin, probably more than any other thing. [/end digression]
and they were trying to push it in Austin. They haven't done it much which is why it's pretty easy to notice when they do it...that was probably their second biggest attempt in Austin and the only that might be bigger was one in the early early 80's at Gervin's peak.
...they made a lot of connections with Austin and that was a pretty big story in Austin at the time. In fact I'd be willing to bet Moore's jersey being retired was a bigger deal in Austin than it was in SA. As was his illness...
That was also back in the day when the SAEN sports section sucked butt
(I think there were two major SA papers back then, both sucked on Sports coverage) ..even their Spurs coverage. So it was probably covered in the news more in Austin as well. That was back in the days when the Dallas Morning News did as good of a job if not better than the San Antonip Papers. Any article about the Spurs in the SA papers was sheer cotton candy fluff.
Well I definitely think the major factor was his illness, but there's no doubt the fact that he was one of the best basketball players produced by UT up to that point was a factor...If he went to any other school, his jersey wouldn't have been retired. UT kid who overcame Desert Fever was good enough to retire his jersey, I guess.
As for how good Moore was...I think he's under-rated...and whether he's underrated or not...there's no doubt his career numbers were hurt by his illness.
Last edited by whottt; 12-25-2007 at 03:18 AM.
To mention AJ and George Gervin in the same breathe makes me ill. No way should AJ's jersey be flying next to the G-Man.
When you put it that way...no player short of DRob should be hanging there!
It's a tough sell in this crowd, and I agree that it's not worthy (just yet)...
Why hasn't Malik Rose's jersey been retired? He meets the aj criteria.
Which is likeable,
Carreer scrub,
Whott Bait.
I guess Malik wasn't a career Spur...I'd say if he spent his career with the team then he'd have an argument. If AJ had spent his entire career with the Spurs you couldn't really mount much of an argument against him...
I realize it's not entirely their fault they weren't career Spurs(especially in the case of Malik), but that's the whole thing about career team guys having a strong argument...because it is so rare that it happens and a player becomes so strongly indentified with one team.
You know...I think Michael Finley was a no brainer jersey retirement candidate for the Mavs, if he'd retired the day they waived him, even including his Suns years....now? I'm not so sure. Something about finishing a career with a different team(s) hurts a guys case...
BTW Gtown...your stupid man's Marcus Bryant act is growing increasingly stale...either stop sucking or shut up.
Hate to bust your bubble, especially on Christmas and especially because I agree with a lot of your takes on Moore, but Moore's jersey was retired either late 1998 or early 1999. Far after the time period you speak of.
No ? I'd have sworn it was during the 90-91 season....oh well, sounded goodHate to bust your bubble, especially on Christmas and especially because I agree with a lot of your takes on Moore, but Moore's jersey was retired either late 1998 or early 1999. Far after the time period you speak of.
But you yourself still made the PR argument for me by mentioning the UT connection....
In any case...Moore's illness and return were a big deal in Austin, and were covered pretty extensively in the Austin papers.
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