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Shoog got some irony in him
Then in that case:
Tim Duncan's prime > Hakeem's prime.
Shoog got some irony in him
This is again where context comes in.
When the Spurs are facing Dirk Nowitzki, Bowen, not Duncan, guards him.
When the Spurs face Shaq or Yao, Duncan doesnt draw the assignment. David Robinson drew the other team's best big for years. Post D-Rob it's been Rasho/Oberto/Elson/Kurt Thomas.
It goes without say when you have a HOF C, one of the 3 best Defensive C's ever in DRob for the first 5 yrs of your career who consistently guarded the other team's best big, you'll have an easier time staying out of foul trouble.
Then when you have a guy like Bowen, who is a lock down perimeter defender, you are also going to be in a better position to draw less fouls.
In Hakeem's heyday, he guarded DRob, Ewing, Shaq, Zo, etc. It wasnt deferred to someone else on the Rockets. Not only does that make it harder to have enough energy to dominate offensively, it puts you in a position to pick up more fouls.
But all of this is pretty much irrelevant, because as was noted in the previous Duncan-Hakeem argument, Hakeem averaged the same number of minutes per game in the regular and postseasons in his prime as Tim Duncan. So this argument is basically utterly wrong.
OBTW, arguing that Duncan's bankshot is on par with Kareem's skyhook or Hakeem's turnaround J is just ridiculous. Not only does Duncan not shoot that as near the clip of the other 2 money shots, but it's easier to take away. Crowd a PF and he can't shoot the bank shot. You can't prevent a 7'4" guy from shooting a skyhook and can't block a 7 foot C with Hakeem's athleticism from shooting a fadeaway jumper. You just have to hope they miss.
If the Spurs win the le this year, the likely main reason will be Manu Ginobili. You put guys like Manu and Parker in their primes around a great big and there's many guys who would have won multiple les, not just Tim Duncan. I believe in today's NBA David Robinson would be a multiple time NBA Champion (not 4, but prob 1-2). Barkley would have too.
I doubt any true Spurs fan would argue that Ginobili isn't the best player on the team in 2007-2008. He's the closer, the man that finishes close games. He could very easily rank in the top 5 for NBA MVP this year and he almost certainly will get more consideration than Duncan.
If Duncan played C, most of the First Team Awards would have gone to Shaquille O'Neal every year, until 2003 or 2004. He might not get it over Dwight Howard this year or Yao Ming, who have had better seasons.
And that's in a league where C is the weakest it's ever been, not even a blip compared to the era Hakeem played with David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, Shaq O'Neal, Alonzo Mourning, Kareem and Moses in their later years, etc.
Jamstone made a good point. It's always going to be easier to get it at Forward, because Center is historically the strongest position in the NBA. The top 5 Centers in NBA history are all top 10-11 all time players. Plus you can make it as the #2 guy and still be first team all NBA, as Duncan was many of those years to KG, at least in the regular season.
Make no mistake, when Duncan played the premier bigman in the NBA besides him was Shaquille O'Neal and he played Center.
Your point about Lebron is largely irrelevant given the guy didn't even enter the league until Duncan was about 7 yrs Pro and that was as a raw 18 yr old. The guy just now is entering his prime. Do you really think Duncan makes All-NBA first team this season over Kevin Garnett and Lebron James?
^^ Here you are. What took you so long?
For the noobs on the board, bobbyjoe visits ST to post exclusively on Duncan vs Hakeem topics.
There is no way that Duncan was better than Hakeem in his prime. In fact I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that today's NBA players can't light a candle to the players of the last era.
Bird, Jordan, Magic, Dr. J, Hakeem, Stockton, Malone, R. Miller, Barkley >>>> D.Wade, Lebron, Yao, Duncan, Kidd, Arenas, Melo, Iverson, T-Mac
with one notable exception...Kobe
Today's NBA players would get beaten by 40 pts if they played against the players from 15 years ago.
Actually, I post a lot on the NBA Forums section. Of course those have deteriorated lately in quality. Lots of weak smack talk.
At the end of the day, nobody cares whether you had the turnaround or the bank shot, whether you beat Robinson 1-on-1 or dropped 37/16 to finish off the 3-peat Lakers. It all ultimately boils down to who you'd select to start your franchise. Here's what they've done for their respective franchises (SA and HOU respectively)
Duncan: 71% career wins in SA during his playing years, 4 les as the 1st option, anchored the defense and quarterbacked the offense
Hakeem: 57% career wins in HOU during his years, 2 les as the main man, focal point of both defense and offense
Duncan's tenure with the Spurs has not only been dominant in basketball, but also across all the major pro sports. He changed the face of the franchise from that of a moderately successful also-ran to the 4th most successful NBA franchise of all time, behind the Celtics (16), Lakers (14) and Bulls (6). Hakeem can go suck on that.
Robinson's record vs Hakeem: 32-16
Robinson 20.1 ppg 11.2 rpg
Hakeem 23.6 ppg 11.5 rpg
Robinson vs Ewing: 12-7
Olajuwon vs Ewing: 18-17
Robinson vs Shaq: 21-20
Olajuwon vs Shaq: 11-17
Actually, just for that one series, and the only reason he did it is because Robinson won an individual award that Hakeem thought was rightfully his. The consummate team player, that one.
Like Jamstone said, Olajuwon kills almost everyone in individual talent and ability. The reason he's not greater is because he couldn't be bothered to play to his potential much of the time.
Last edited by Obstructed_View; 03-29-2008 at 11:54 AM. Reason: Fixed the stats for accuracy.
By 99 Duncan was better than Shaq?!?
Uhhhh, No.
Shaq guards Duncan more effectively than vice versa. Even at 35 yrs old, Shaq shut down Duncan a few weeks ago. 4 for 16 shooting. Intimidation from the Diesel.
Did you not watch basketball from 2000-2002 when Shaq put together the most dominant stretch of play from a big man in NBA history?
In the 2002 playoff series, the Lakers put Shaq on Duncan in the 4th Q's of every game and he completely shut down Timmy. In 01 and 02, the Lakers and Shaq were 8-1 against TD and his Spurs in the playoffs. 8-1!!!
Timmy's great and you can argue him vs. Hakeem all you want, but no way is he a better player overall or in his prime than Shaq.
What was your opinion of Duncan's "Bill Russell" type of defense against Amare in the 2005 playoffs?
The fallacy in your thesis is that Hakeem has shown he can succeed against defenders better than Duncan (David Robinson, Alonzo Mourning, Dikembe Mutombo) and dominate but Duncan has struggled with quicker players (see Dirk, who Popovich wont even let him guard and Amare Stoudemire).
Conversely, Duncan has never faced a player as good as Hakeem defensively but we can see anecdotally that players with length and shotblocking ability do help contain Duncan effectively.
All that said, Shaq ranks ahead of both guys and pretty easily...
Regarding comparisons on defense, comparing eras is misleading. The late 80s and early 90s saw quite a bit of physical defense, handchecking, leniency towards shotblocks and bodying up.
The 2000s has ushered in the pussification of the league to protect its golden-boy swingmen. This is another reason why the C position has floundered and average Centers are foul machines. The refs call fouls if you so much as breathe on a player who is playing facing the basket. Dirk and Amare have it 10X easier than say, Shawn Kemp did. The 90s Centers wouldn't have been as effective in today's world. No doubt they were still great, but their defensive effectiveness would have been lower in the modern NBA
Actually, in the 90's it was much easier to neutralize the defensive prowess of a great shotblocker like a David Robinson or Hakeem Olajuwon.
Pull your big man out to the top of the key and dominant shotblockers would have to exit the paint. Back then it was illegal defense if they parked in the paint. Now you can do whatever you want with your bigs defensively.
I agree about the pussification of the league, but that really affects guys on the perimeter. Guys like Dwayne Wade are so effective in the no-handcheck era and may not have been with the older rules. It's much harder to deny penetration with the current rules but underneath the level of contact is still physical in today's NBA. On the wings is where you see the cheapies being called.
Maybe in terms of being an NBA icon yes, but in terms of who was the better player, The Dream was the man.....no contest.
I disagree completely with your logic and methodology (using team stats in a 5 on 5 sport to compare players who didnt even play in the same era; your inference is that quality of teammates or compe ion somehow don't matter), but I wholeheartedly agree that it doesnt matter who would win 1 on 1 between the 2 players. That's just irrelevant and not likely to be the real question the original post is asking.
John Stockton was totally outplayed by Gary Payton everytime the 2 were matched up, but who would take Payton over #12 to start a franchise?
It's quite simple folks.
Victoria, Texas > Del Rio
That is the dumbest argument to support who's better. Duh, did you forget the other 4 guys on the court for both respective players?
you mean Drexler, Cassell, Horry, Smith, ellie. Not exactly scrubs.
Pretty sure Drob VS Shaq is 21-20 or 20-19 Drob. Drob was 5-3 VS Shaq before Duncan. In the playoffs DRob and Shaq were 9-9(or 2 series to 2)
I think your total leaves off all of the 2003 season where the Lakers got swept in the regular season(with Shaq being healthy for 2 of the losses) and defeated 4-2 in the post season.
Duncan was MVP in 2002 and 2003, so he beats Shaq those years. In Shaq's first 5 years, he never made first team. He missed in '99 as well.
In '99, Duncan finished ahead of Shaq in MVP voting.
In '98, Shaq was 4th, Duncan 5th.
In 2001, Duncan was ahead of Shaq.
In 2004, Duncan was ahead of Shaq again.
You, like most people who don't understand basketball, fail to realize that basketball is not all about scoring. Sure, it's the most talked-about stat, but it's only one of many important aspects of the game. And yes, Ginobili has a slight edge in scoring over Duncan at the moment. Slight.
But right up there with scoring is a thing called rebounding. Do you know what that is? Guess who leads the Spurs by a long shot in rebounding? It's not Ginobili.
Another important aspect of the game is defense, especially protecting the rim. Guess who's the best Spur at defending the rim, by a long shot? Again, it's not Ginobili.
Now, I love Manu. He's my second favorite player in the game. And he is CRUCIAL to the Spurs' success this year and every year. But that being said, I never make the mistake of forgetting that basketball is a game of big men, and the Spurs are built around one of the top 10 big men to ever play the game. He is their MVP this year, and every year he's been on the team.
You doubt the importance of a dominant big man? Look at the Lakers' last night. Despite Kobe's 50+ points, they lost at home to the Grizzlies! Because they had no Gasol and no Bynum. You take Duncan off the Spurs, sure, Manu might average 29pts a game, but they wouldn't make the playoffs this year, and they definitely wouldn't be contending for a 5th Championship.
Just ask George Gervin how many Championships he won without a dominant big man.
Thank you.
Well stated and it's no surprise that I agree with you.
It's a team sport, one man doesn't win it alone.
But without Duncan this team has no rings.
It all goes through Duncan, on both ends of the floor.
Pop has said it many times every season, as have Parker and Manu.
By golly you're right. The article didn't have a year on it, but I found out that it's from January of 2003. It should be 21-20 Dave, which just makes the argument that Dave>Hakeem all the more convincing.
When the Rockets & Akeem went up against Ewing, Olajuwon would guard him until he got near foul trouble, then they would stick Thorpe on him. In earlier years, Akeem had Ralph Sampson as well.
2000 and 2004 would probably go to KG given that he has better MVP voting numbers those two years, but 2003 was all Duncan.
Besides, it's not like Duncan didn't have any compe ion out of KG in his 10 year career. There was Karl Malone earlier on, then Chris Webber, Jermaine O'Neal, Nowitzki, and LeBron James.
Nowitzki's MVP season, Karl Malone and James were as high as Robinson's peak (almost), and the other ones were at least comparable to Ewing.
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