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I still can't believe Darko went ahead of all the guys that he did, and that Josh Howard lasted until pick 29.
That's not the point.
The point is that if you KNOW that nobody is taking Carlos Boozer until the 2nd round, why would you waste a 1st round pick on him? Even if after he proves he's better than that, it doesn't matter, his price was set at "2nd round" so why pay more?
Why pay $5 for a cheeseburger that only costs $2? Even if the cheeseburger turns out to be good enough to pay $10 for, the price was set at $2. Why pay more?
If you redraft after the fact, yes Carlos Boozer is one of first guys off the board. But ON DRAFT DAY nobody was going to take him with that pick. If you know you want Carlos Boozer, and you KNOW that nobody is going to take him until the 2nd round, why waste a 1st round pick on him?
I still can't believe Darko went ahead of all the guys that he did, and that Josh Howard lasted until pick 29.
The Cowboys wanted Quincy Carter. Everybody knew it. But nobody else wanted Quincy Carter until Day 2 of the draft.
Why waste a 2nd round pick on Quincy Carter when you know you can get him later?
Everybody says that's a stupid pick now that Quincy Carter failed miserably. But I don't care if he turned out to be better than Peyton Manning, taking Carter in the 2nd round ON THAT DAY was a stupid pick no matter what he did.
It doesn't matter that Tom Brady turned out to be the best player in his draft class. His value ON DRAFT DAY was that of a 5th-6th round pick. If the Patriots took him with their first round pick, it's a stupid pick regardless of how Brady turned out, because the price for Tom Brady was already set at the 6th round.
What's stupid is not surrendering to Coach O when you have the chance ladies.
T-Mac was drafted in 1997, back then, KG was in his second year, and Bryant and Jermaine O'Neal just finished his rookie year. The craze didn't start until Johnathan Bender was selected as the 5th pick in 1999 (ironically, by the Raptors, but then traded to the Pacers for Antonio Davis), and hit full throttle in 2001, with Kwame Brown, Chandler and Curry going 3 of the top 4.
The reason for the high school craze was because of the success of high school players like T-Mac.
Camby was the right pick at the time, and his durability was his main issue.
David Lee was picked 30th in the draft, it is very impressive to get a rotational player that deep in the draft. Of course, there are other notable talents that were picked after Lee such as Brandon Bass, Monta Ellis, Ryan Gomes and Ronny Turiaf, but all things considered, this was a very solid pick.
Frye did very well in this rookie year, and was in the talks for ROY early in the year. Again, there aren't that many players who are better than him lower in the draft. There's Bynum, Danny Granger, Jason Maxiell and Monta Ellis. This is a borderline pick, but it wasn't horrible.
Also note that in the same draft, the Knicks acquired Nate Robinson, who has proven to be a valuable part of the dismal Knicks.
Finally, Stoudemire was an upset pick. People were rooting for Ed O'Bannon throughout. The pick was largely criticized in Toronto as the first pick the franchise made.
Your argument is ridiculous. Not every NBA GM knows what every single other NBA GM is thinking. And, not every NBA GM has the same exact draft board as every single other NBA GM. It's not like they all go to nbadraft.net or draftexpress.com and say, yup, that's what everyone else must be thinking. And, then there is draft positioning. If a team has a #25 pick in the first round and a #53 pick in the second round, and the guy they want is projected somewhere between #40-45, and they can't trade their first round pick, how do they get that guy without reaching with the first round pick?
And, especially with a guy like Isiah Thomas, who other GMs are not going to just casually let him know what they're thinking and where they value certain prospects, you can't just assume a certain prospect is not going to get drafted by a certain pick just because draftexpress has them there. You might miss out on the guy your team wants if you think that way.
Your logic simply doesn't make sense. Again, the draft in general is a gamble. Even top picks aren't sure fire great picks. Later in the first round, it's better to find and select a player that fits your team than listen to what "draft experts" say you should take.
So you think there was another GM who wanted Balkman in the 1st round?
Um, trade up in the 2nd round? It's not that tough. GM's aren't killing each other for 2nd round draft positioning. Most GM's use the 2nd round to draft some bull player they'll just stash in Europe anyways.
You don't take a guy that's clearly a 2nd rounder with a 1st round pick. That's just irresponsible, and an extremely simplistic view of things.
You're criticizing Isiah over stupid . Was there another team that would have drafted Renaldo Balkman in the first round? Probably not, but you and I certainly don't know that for sure. And, at the time, Isiah claimed he had indications that Phoenix was prepared to draft Balkman with the #21 pick. Now whether that's true or not, again, neither you or I know for sure.
The Knicks didn't have a second round pick in 2006 and again, you're talking about Isiah Thomas, who isn't exactly well liked by other GMs. Could he have traded for a second round pick? Very likely. Would he probably have to give up more than the average GM to get a second round pick? Very likely. Were there other prospects that were drafted after Balkman that have turned out to be clearly better than him? One, maybe two. Was it a good draft pick at #20. Probably not. Does that draft pick mean he's a bad evaluator of talent? Simply no. It means he reached with a draft pick for a player that he definitely wanted and may have felt could be drafted before their second first round draft pick at the end of that first round. He got the player he wanted. There weren't any mind blowing prospects left that were by far better prospects than Balkman when the Knicks selected him.
It's like killing Atlanta for drafting Dion Glover with the #20 pick in 1999, until you look who was left on the draft board and realize there weren't really any other great prospects left except for Kirilenko, an international player and Manu Ginobili who no one else knew about either.
When there isn't much left on the draftboard in terms of good talent, you can't get much value for that pick. So it's not wrong to just select a player you like even if it's reaching.
Good lord, why am I arguing about this?
I say "Isiah Thomas can't work the draft for " and JamStone disagrees. Fine. Everyone has their own opinions.
But I keep repeating my same argument. It really makes no sense for me to do that.
Why don't I just do this instead:
Isiah Thomas
1995-96 Toronto Raptors 21-61
1996-97 Toronto Raptors 30-52
1997-98 Toronto Raptors 16-66
1998-99 Toronto Raptors 23-27
2003-04 New York Knickerbockers 39-43
2004-05 New York Knickerbockers 33-49
2005-06 New York Knickerbockers 23-59
2006-07 New York Knickerbockers 33-49
2007-08 New York Knickerbockers 20-54
Working the draft the way Isiah Thomas does really works
What made Balkman a second rounder? Draft mock boards? The opinion of draft experts that also felt Darko was a top 3 pick in 2003 or that Kwame Brown was the best player in the 2001 draft or that Carlos Boozer and Gilbert Arenas didn't have first round talent?
It's all opinion, subjective opinion. And, from that 2006 draft, Balkman has actually reached his value at #20 closer than guys like JJ Re , Saer Sene, Hilton Armstrong, Shawne Williams, and Quincy Douby who were all drafted higher than him. So, one could easily argue that Balkman at #20 was actually a solid draft selection even if "YOU" want to believe it wasn't just because you "think" no other team valued Balkman that high, which is not at all a fact of certainty.
Good lord, why am I arguing about this?
I say "Isiah Thomas can't work the draft for " and JamStone disagrees. Fine. Everyone has their own opinions.
But I keep repeating my same argument. It really makes no sense for me to do that.
Why don't I just do this instead:
Isiah Thomas
1995-96 Toronto Raptors 21 61
1996-97 Toronto Raptors 30 52
1997-98 Toronto Raptors 16 66
1998-99 Toronto Raptors 23 27
2003-04 NBA New York Knickerbockers 39 43
2004-05 NBA New York Knickerbockers 33 49
2005-06 NBA New York Knickerbockers 23 59
2006-07 NBA New York Knickerbockers 33 49
2007-08 NBA New York Knickerbockers 20 54
Working the draft the way Isiah Thomas does really works
Drafting is the only thing that affects team record?
I guess don't even account for trades, chemistry, coaching, player craziness, or injury at all then. Guess record is the ONLY factor in team success. I like that logic. That means Darko Milicic was the absolutely best draft pick that year in 2003 since the Pistons won the 2004 NBA le.
edit: It's already well established that Isiah is a very bad GM and does not know how to contsruct or build a team. What's at issue is his ability to evaluate talent. His is very good at evaluating talent. He is very bad at building a successful team with that talent.
All I'm saying is you'd think a heralded talent evaluator like Isiah Thomas would be able to manage a team to a winning record just once in 9 years of trying.
That sort of proves my point. He is a mediocre coach, a bad GM, but still a great drafter of talent... not TRADER of talent, drafter of talent.Good lord, why am I arguing about this?
I say "Isiah Thomas can't work the draft for " and JamStone disagrees. Fine. Everyone has their own opinions.
But I keep repeating my same argument. It really makes no sense for me to do that.
Why don't I just do this instead:
Isiah Thomas
1995-96 Toronto Raptors 21-61
1996-97 Toronto Raptors 30-52
1997-98 Toronto Raptors 16-66
1998-99 Toronto Raptors 23-27
2003-04 New York Knickerbockers 39-43
2004-05 New York Knickerbockers 33-49
2005-06 New York Knickerbockers 23-59
2006-07 New York Knickerbockers 33-49
2007-08 New York Knickerbockers 20-54
Working the draft the way Isiah Thomas does really works
in that case it's in the Knicks best interest to fire Isiah so that he can draft talent for someone else & then trade it away to them.
Of course, you conveniently left out his three years at Indiana, where Isiah had to completely overhaul a team that lost Rik Smits, Dale Davis, and Antonio Davis, while developing Jermaine O'Neal into a star caliber player, trading for Ron Artest and Brad Miller, drafting Jamaal Tinsley, all the while making those massive overhaul changes, still maintaining a playoff team.
Of course, let's forget about that.
And, as for his Toronto years, let's just forget they were a completely new, expansion team his three years there. I recall a bunch of winning expansion teams in their first three seasons in the league.
Miami's first three seasons: 15-67, 18-64, 24-58
Vancouver's first three seasons: 15-67, 14-68, 19-63
Charlotte's first three seasons: 20-62, 19-63, 26-56
Orlando's first three seasons: 18-64, 31-51, 21-61
Isiah is a bad GM. He makes bad trades. He doesn't know how to build a team with chemistry. He appears to be a below average coach as well. He makes poor free agent acquisitions.
But, he is a very good evaluator of NBA talent.
Am I mistaken in assuming he was only the head coach? Was he GM as well? If so then he did a good job running the show in Indiana.
I honestly thought he was just the coach for the Pacers, that's why I left that out.
And it really shows.
Walsh was the GM. Isiah was mostly behind the deals for Jermaine O'Neal, Ron Artest, and Brad Miller, as well as pushing for the draft selections for Tinsley, James Jones, Jamison Brewer, and Fred Jones. He was the head coach. He didn't have final decisions on personnel changes, but he was behind most of those moves during the time.
Agreed.
Finally.
For a guy that basically does not and will not consider drafting talent from overseas, and considering that about 20% of NBA players are from overseas, I can't understand how some of you deem him as one of the best scouts out there.
Considering only about 10% of that 20% of overseas talent ends up being quality players, it's not that hard to understand.
Isiah would be getting killed even worse than he already is if he was the one selecting Nikoloz Tskitishvili or Jiri Welsch or Zarko Cabarkapa or Zoran Planinic
or Pavel Podkolzin or Yaroslav Korolev or Raul Lopez with first round draft picks.
sigh....I guess it was headed this direction sooner or later.
end thread.
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