Its painfully clear now..... Jordan > Kobe and its not close

[The Franchise]

I just want the Lakers to win Game 5, don't let those Beantown s celebrate on our home floor. If we push the series to 6 games I can live with that.

The championship run starts next season. Give me a healthy Bynum and another year of experience with this core and I don't see any team knocking us out. This will be a repeat of what happened in the 80's, BOS wins in '84 and the Lakers strike back in '85 and go on to dominate the 80's.

SHADDUPP!!!!!

[Warlord23]

People forget that even Jordan had Final's performances where he shot just as horribly. In 1996 I remember he threw up some real stinkers (5-19, 9-22, 6-19). Winning at the highest level is a team effort.

The Lakers are not losing this series because Kobe isn't shooting well. They are losing because of their defense. If Kobe can't win a ring when Bynum returns then I think we can sufficiently say the man is not capable of leading a team to the promise land. Right now there are too many deficiencies in this current Laker squad to place the blame solely on his shoulders.

See that's the thing, I'm not looking at single-game performances. I don't take a 1-game achievement as proof of anything. Just like 81 against a pathetic Raptor team shouldn't define a player's career, one bad game does not typify a series.

I'm looking at Jordan's Finals legacy: 6-0 in Finals series with 6 unquestioned Finals MVPs. If Kobe scores 40 in game 5 the fanboys will be all over the place. Jordan OTOH averaged 41.0 PPG for an entire Finals series in 1993.

Jordan's finals series:
1991: 31.2 PPG, 11.4 APG, 6.6 RPG on 56% FGP
1992: 35.8 PPG, 6.5 APG, 4.8 RPG on 53% FGP
1993: 41.0 PPG, 6.3 APG, 8.5 RPG on 51% FGP
1996: 27.3 PPG, 4.2 APG, 5.3 RPG on 41.5% FGP
1997: 32.3 PPG, 6.0 APG, 7.0 RPG on 46% FGP
1998: 33.5 PPG, 2.3 APG, 4.0 RPG on 43% FGP

[DazedAndConfused]

See that's the thing, I'm not looking at single-game performances. I don't take a 1-game achievement as proof of anything. Just like 81 against a pathetic Raptor team shouldn't define a player's career, one bad game does not typify a series.

I'm looking at Jordan's Finals legacy: 6-0 in Finals series with 6 unquestioned Finals MVPs. If Kobe scores 40 in game 5 the fanboys will be all over the place. Jordan OTOH averaged 41.0 PPG for an entire Finals series in 1993.

Jordan's finals series:
1991: 31.2 PPG, 11.4 APG, 6.6 RPG on 56% FGP
1992: 35.8 PPG, 6.5 APG, 4.8 RPG on 53% FGP
1993: 41.0 PPG, 6.3 APG, 8.5 RPG on 51% FGP
1996: 27.3 PPG, 4.2 APG, 5.3 RPG on 41.5% FGP
1997: 32.3 PPG, 6.0 APG, 7.0 RPG on 46% FGP
1998: 33.5 PPG, 2.3 APG, 4.0 RPG on 43% FGP

What's your point? Kobe isn't as good as MJ, we get it. That doesn't mean he isn't a phenomenal talent capable of leading a team to a championship.

It doesn't matter how good YOU are as an individual, unless you have a supporting cast around you that can step it up you aren't going anywhere. The Lakers have all the pieces in place EXCEPT for a defensive anchor, which is probably the most important piece to have in the playoffs. Talk about Kobe all you want if he cannot lead a team with Bynum to a championship. As of right now, the Lakers are losing because their defense is horrendous......not because Kobe is having bad shooting nights.

[KobeOwnsBowen]

Jordan got way more help than Kobe. It is not even funny. Kobe is the greatest.

[Gino]

What's your point? Kobe isn't as good as MJ, we get it. That doesn't mean he isn't a phenomenal talent capable of leading a team to a championship.

It doesn't matter how good YOU are as an individual, unless you have a supporting cast around you that can step it up you aren't going anywhere. The Lakers have all the pieces in place EXCEPT for a defensive anchor, which is probably the most important piece to have in the playoffs. Talk about Kobe all you want if he cannot lead a team with Bynum to a championship. As of right now, the Lakers are losing because their defense is horrendous......not because Kobe is having bad shooting nights.

LMAO!!! Laker fans are resting all their hope on the defensive skills of Andrew "Ship his as out" Bynum.

Keep thinking that, D&C if it helps you sleep better at night.

[The Franchise]

Jordan got way more help than Kobe. It is not even funny. Kobe is the greatest.

You must be kidding. Compared to the team Kobe has Jordan had some real bums. If you remember the only two constant faces on those championship Bulls teams were Mike and Scottie. The rest of them were plug and play.

[DazedAndConfused]

You must be kidding. Compared to the team Kobe has Jordan had some real bums. If you remember the only two constant faces on those championship Bulls teams were Mike and Scottie. The rest of them were plug and play.

I don't agree with that at all. During Jordan's baseball vacation, Pippen lead the Bulls to 50+ wins. Let me repeat that, the Bulls were a 50+ win team WITHOUT Jordan. It clearly wasn't all Jordan, he had an extremely capable cast. There may not have been many big names besides Pippen, but those teams were incredibly well balanced and filled with tough minded vets who had the killer instinct needed to win.

Do you honestly see the Lakers winning anything close to 50+ games without Kobe?

I'm not saying Kobe is > MJ. I'm saying MJ needed help to win championships, he didn't get to the promise land with a bunch of scrubs. Why do people expect Kobe to do the same?

[The Franchise]

I don't agree with that at all. During Jordan's baseball vacation, Pippen lead the Bulls to 50+ wins. Let me repeat that, the Bulls were a 50+ win team WITHOUT Jordan. It clearly wasn't all Jordan, he had an extremely capable cast. There may not have been many big names besides Pippen, but those teams were incredibly well balanced and filled with tough minded vets who had the killer instinct needed to win.

Do you honestly see the Lakers winning anything close to 50+ games without Kobe?

I'm not saying Kobe is > MJ. I'm saying MJ needed help to win championships, he didn't get to the promise land with a bunch of scrubs. Why do people expect Kobe to do the same?

I have a question. If you put MJ in Kobes place do you think the Lakers would be losing? If you say no then the comparison is over. Kobe is the best in the league now, but MJ is the King past and present. Kobes' game reflects his personality to much. Selfish and stubborn.

[DazedAndConfused]

I have a question. If you put MJ in Kobes place do you think the Lakers would be losing? If you say no then the comparison is over. Kobe is the best in the league now, but MJ is the King past and present. Kobes' game reflects his personality to much. Selfish and stubborn.

Yes the Lakers would still be losing if MJ swapped places with Kobe.

[daslicer]

Yes the Lakers would still be losing if MJ swapped places with Kobe.

I don't think so walking Vagina the thing is that MJ was also great defensive player which Kobe isn't. MJ had Bruce Bowen like defense and on top of that could play lockdown D on anybody at will. Do you honestly Ray Allen would play well against MJ considering this is the same guy who cries whenever he goes up against Bruce. MJ would shut down either Pierce or Allen which would make the big 3 the big 2. Defense is very underatted but you got think about how this series would be different if Ray Allen could be shut down. He's been huge all of the games.

[DazedAndConfused]

I don't think so walking Vagina the thing is that MJ was also great defensive player which Kobe isn't. MJ had Bruce Bowen like defense and on top of that could play lockdown D on anybody at will. Do you honestly Ray Allen would play well against MJ considering this is the same guy who cries whenever he goes up against Bruce. MJ would shut down either Pierce or Allen which would make the big 3 the big 2. Defense is very underatted but you got think about how this series would be different if Ray Allen could be shut down. He's been huge all of the games.

It's amazing how people rewrite history when they talk about MJ. It tends to happen when we talk about the greats, they are always remembered to be greater than they actually were. In Jordan's case, he never had to guard the opposing team's best wing player.....that was all on Scottie Pippen. There is no way Jordan could guard a guy like Pierce for 48 minutes and then have the energy to shoot 50% from the field against the Celtic defense. That's just not happening. And he wouldn't be much help against Ray Allen either, Allen gets open because he's running through 3-4 different screens (half of which are moving picks by KG). All he needs is a glimmer of daylight and he can get a shot off, like Reggie Miller there is no way you can stop him from getting at least a few open looks.

The Celtic's defense is geared towards stopping one man shows like Kobe and Lebron. If Lebron couldn't get to the rim against the Celtic defense then there is no way that Jordan would have been able to. Jordan would have had to have made his living off of jumpshots the way Kobe has to now. You don't beat this Celtic team with ISO play, you beat them by playing team basketball. Move the ball around and find the gaps in the defense. It has to be a team effort. No one player is going to single handedly beat a defense as good as the Celtics.

[gasolina]

It's amazing how people rewrite history when they talk about MJ. It tends to happen when we talk about the greats, they are always remembered to be greater than they actually were. In Jordan's case, he never had to guard the opposing team's best wing player.....that was all on Scottie Pippen. There is no way Jordan could guard a guy like Pierce for 48 minutes and then have the energy to shoot 50% from the field against the Celtic defense. That's just not happening. And he wouldn't be much help against Ray Allen either, Allen gets open because he's running through 3-4 different screens (half of which are moving picks by KG). All he needs is a glimmer of daylight and he can get a shot off, like Reggie Miller there is no way you can stop him from getting at least a few open looks.

The Celtic's defense is geared towards stopping one man shows like Kobe and Lebron. If Lebron couldn't get to the rim against the Celtic defense then there is no way that Jordan would have been able to. Jordan would have had to have made his living off of jumpshots the way Kobe has to now. You don't beat this Celtic team with ISO play, you beat them by playing team basketball. Move the ball around and find the gaps in the defense. It has to be a team effort. No one player is going to single handedly beat a defense as good as the Celtics.

What?!?!? You honestly believe that MJ would struggle against the 08 Celtic defense?

MJ had to deal with the Bad Boy Piston D as well as the Rug Tug Pat riley Knicks team both of which were known to knock teeth out when someone dared to drive the ball to the basket!

When did you start watching pro hoops?

[spurms]

it's amazing how a dumb fakers fan would do that, if you watched jordan play prior to his first retirement, he guard the opposing teams point guard from the get go, and switch to their main perimeter threat, pippen plays the low post at the arc and trap most of the time, pippen is not quick enough to stop the premier slashers but what he did was play good help defense, after his comback jordan lost a step, but still average more steals then kobe, and still able to keep within an inch of his man all the time, jordan also had a quick first step, quicker then kobe ever had, that's what make him so unguardable on offense, till you actually watched the early bulls games, stfu. Jordan plays defense with tenacity, the way he keeps in front of his man, and helping from the weakside, it's call awareness, both on offense and defense, he just knows how to play the game period, and read his opponents better then kobe. Lebron actually did well as the series progressed, jordan would have got it going from the start, and would have averaged what kobe did in game 2throughout the series.

[Spur-Addict]

LMAO!!! Laker fans are resting all their hope on the defensive skills of Andrew "Ship his as out" Bynum.

Keep thinking that, D&C if it helps you sleep better at night.

Your sig is hilarious.

[m33p0]

What?!?!? You honestly believe that MJ would struggle against the 08 Celtic defense?

MJ had to deal with the Bad Boy Piston D as well as the Rug Tug Pat riley Knicks team both of which were known to knock teeth out when someone dared to drive the ball to the basket!

When did you start watching pro hoops?

not to mention hand-check.

[Spur-Addict]

Yes the Lakers would still be losing if MJ swapped places with Kobe.

..........................................nap time..........wakes up to eat...logs on....reads thread again and statement.......................

[SenorSpur]

I've stated this in other threads and I'm gonna keep zinging it.

MJ would've NEVER, EVER quit on this team the way Kobe quit on the Fakers, during a crucial Game 7 versus the Suns 2 seasons ago. I don't care the cir stances or situation. MJ has too much pride and compe ive will to ever quit at anything. Kobe, apparently stung by criticism that he was shooting the ball too much, decided the time was right for some "get back". So he quit. INEXCUSABLE!

For that action, he should've never been mentioned in the same breath as MJ.