The end of Malik?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Shut the up already you little blowhard chump.

Okay Sparky. I know I've won if you're resorting to personal potshots.

It's been a fun discussion, too bad it's been so one sided. Look around, no one's backing you up on this for a reason. And it's not because they're all cheap either.

[SPARKY]

Not in two years he hasn't. Quit living on the dude's legacy, it's obvious the Spurs team has.

Again, he's not been given the chance because of, again, the contract.

What points? I haven't seen anything other than "I'm right, you're wrong." That's as ing lame as living on Rose's legacy.

Go back and read.

They're human. They make mistakes. Even I was for Rose getting the deal they originally gave him. He hasn't backed it up since, especially not this year.

Hahaha. Oh yes, they're human but Malik Rose isn't.

As for them being cheap, show me a GM in the league who'd be happy with their 12th Man making 5 million per. It's not being cheap, it's about getting value for what you're paying for.

Funny. They want him gone because of the contract, not his play.

I'd bet you'd be pretty pissed too if you paid for a Porsche and the thing was running slower than a ing tricycle.

If you pay for a Porsche and you leave it in the garage and about it costing so much yet you can afford it then you are one cheap self loathing .

[SPARKY]

Okay Sparky. I know I've won if you're resorting to personal potshots.

You've earned it after you will not respond to my points yet want to pretend you have.

It's been a fun discussion, too bad it's been so one sided. Look around, no one's backing you up on this for a reason. And it's not because they're all cheap either.

That's ok. Most Spurs fans still want to know why Pop doesn't play Steve Kerr more.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

What points? Ask some questions. I haven't heard anything other than the "you're wrong, I'm right, you're an Aggie, and Malik banged down low a few times back in '02" points.

There's nothing to respond to there.

How can I have a discussion with anyone who thinks Rose's defense on any level, any plane, any alternate LSD induced universe, approaches Tim's or Bruce's?

[SPARKY]

What points? Ask some questions. I haven't heard anything other than the "you're wrong, I'm right, you're an Aggie, and Malik banged down low a few times back in '02" points.

Apparently you cannot read.

There's nothing to respond to there.

How can I have a discussion with anyone who thinks Rose's defense on any level, any plane, any alternate LSD induced universe, approaches Tim's or Bruce's?

All I said was that even the almighty Duncan and Bowen have guys shoot over them on a regular basis. That doesn't mean their D sucks nor that Rose is a DPOY candidate. Figure it out lil' Aggie.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I can read just fine.

Here's a synopsis of your "points" that I can tell.

- You're an Aggie, so you're wrong/sheep er

- Mikey is a fat

- Stats aren't everything

- People score on Duncan and Bowen, so what's the big deal about people doing it on a much more consistent basis over Rose?

- I know more about hoops than you because I said so.

- Rose isn't playing because Holt's cheap, not because his play sucks

- A 6'3" guy with no range helps open up our offense more than a 6'9" guy who can drop the three

- Rose, at 6'3", helps our defense more on 6'10" interior guys who throw him around like a rag doll than Marshall, at 6'9" does guarding the long threes that are the only problem area for the Spurs defense

Other than that, I haven't seen from you in the way of "points."

[SPARKY]

I can read just fine.

Here's a synopsis of your "points" that I can tell.

- You're an Aggie, so you're wrong/sheep er

- Mikey is a fat

I posted my points at the start and instead of responding to them you just spewed your usual nonsensical crap. So as far as I'm concerned you deserve to be treated like a moron.

- Stats aren't everything

Not when one player was on a lotto team for a number of years and the other was helping a team win championships.

- People score on Duncan and Bowen, so what's the big deal about people doing it on a much more consistent basis over Rose?

Rose isn't that poor of a defender. I only said that even Bowen and TD have players score over the top of them. Unfortunately you are the kind of individual who immediate interprets that as a claim that Rose is as good of a defender as TD and Bowen, which it clearly was not.

- I know more about hoops than you because I said so.

Which is correct.

- Rose isn't playing because Holt's cheap, not because his play sucks

Again and again every report about Rose being moved begins and ends with Malik's contract. His play has not changed, he's the same old Malik that he was from 1998-2003. What has changed has been this incessant focus on moving him because of the contract.

- A 6'3" guy with no range helps open up our offense more than a 6'9" guy who can drop the three

There you go again. It's all about height and the jumpshot when evaluating bigs. Just ing stupid.

- Rose, at 6'3", helps our defense more on 6'10" interior guys who throw him around like a rag doll than Marshall, at 6'9" does guarding the long threes that are the only problem area for the Spurs defense

"Rag doll"? Now you're just making up, or perhaps you are that clueless.

Other than that, I haven't seen from you in the way of "points."

I made my points at the start. Unfortunately all you can do is try to create strawmen to respond to them.

[2centsworth]

Seriously, I don't see you bringing any takes, just mocking me because I'm using stats to back up the obvious - that Donyell's better than Rose.

Donyell is not better than Rose. Rose has forgotten what got him the contract. Steals, offensive rebounding and putbacks, tenacious defense, and very little else. Instead, he shoots to fuking much, misses way too many layups, and turns the ballover most times he touches the ball. He still has the talent to be valuable to the spurs, but at this point he doesn't have the mind frame. Donyell has never been known to be a defensive minded player, and has never played for a winner. I'd rather have Scott Williams, Mark Jackson, or Antonio Davis.

[SPARKY]

I suggest first trying to type a coherent sentence before you even think about talking to me you little crack addled dumb .

[Ballcox]

And the winner of the pissing match is..............................
................................................
................................................

Who the cares?

[Dartherus]

Sparky, you're out of arguments in this discussion...it's better to accept it instead of making a fool of yourself in the future, by not accepting facts and reasoned arguments.

I'll try add some thoughts....

Even if Donyell wasn't better than Malik.....(just supposing Sparky is right that Malik>Donyell)
Even if Donyell was crap as a player....

Even then, the Spurs should consider such deal, just because of getting rid of an OVERPAID contract....Donyell is in his last year of his contract and that'ssomething important to consider.

If Donyel doesn't contribute, he won't have room for getting a decent salary for next seasons, and he proves he can contribute and fit in Spurs style, then a good player will be gained for Spurs, and they'll have arguments to negotiate based on performance, rather than paying big bucks for an undersized inside player who doesn't see minutes in action...don't you think?

Besides, if Big mans will be needed, Scola can come next season, and
Scola is >>>> than Malik, for sure, and he probably will cost less than the half of Malik's salary, so the Spurs would recover a Big man for the roster (and a really big man, several inches taller than Malik, a legit 6'9" that could be easily listed as 6'10" or more is his height is listed on the same way as Malik's ;-) ).

[SPARKY]

Sparky, you're out of arguments in this discussion...it's better to accept it instead of making a fool of yourself in the future, by not accepting facts and reasoned arguments.

Problem for you is that I've made a fool out of who you apparently agree with.

I'll try add some thoughts....

Stop the presses.

Even if Donyell wasn't better than Malik.....(just supposing Sparky is right that Malik>Donyell)
Even if Donyell was crap as a player....

Even then, the Spurs should consider such deal, just because of getting rid of an OVERPAID contract....Donyell is in his last year of his contract and that'ssomething important to consider.

You mean the Spurs are looking to move Lik because of his contract? That certainly hasn't been brought up yet.

If Donyel doesn't contribute, he won't have room for getting a decent salary for next seasons, and he proves he can contribute and fit in Spurs style, then a good player will be gained for Spurs, and they'll have arguments to negotiate based on performance, rather than paying big bucks for an undersized inside player who doesn't see minutes in action...don't you think?

Please. Marshall will command just as much if not more than the remaining 4 years that Rose has on his contract. Look at what Brian Cardinal and Adonal Foyle cost last season. At least you have Rose under contract at the average salary for the next 4 seasons. With Marshall you could lose him. If he "doesn't contribute" as you say then you just gave up someone who has been a longtime playoff performer for nothing...well, nothing except for paring down payroll.

Besides, if Big mans will be needed, Scola can come next season, and
Scola is >>>> than Malik, for sure,

So you think. What happens when he's a bust? You just created the problem of finding a reserve bigman and, ugh, you still have Nesterovic starting at center.

and he probably will cost less than the half of Malik's salary, so the Spurs

get what they want which is a cheap reserve bigman in place of Lik. I'm not sure about you but I want to see a Spurs team which isn't going to let money get in the way of putting the best team they can on the court.

would recover a Big man for the roster (and a really big man, several inches taller than Malik, a legit 6'9" that could be easily listed as 6'10" or more is his height is listed on the same way as Malik's ;-) ).

Here we are again with the height thing. If height made a player a real bigman Ostertag would be the second coming of Wilt the Stilt. You guys are so predictable, height, jumpshooting. that. Let's get someone who knows how to play in the paint, just not someone who looks like a "really big man"...

[Dartherus]

Problem for you is that I've made a fool out of who you apparently agree with.

Sparky, Aggie beat you badly, why looking for beeing beating more?

You mean the Spurs are looking to move Lik because of his contract? That certainly hasn't been brought up yet.

Why wouldn't make sense? care to explain?

Please. Marshall will command just as much if not more than the remaining 4 years that Rose has on his contract. Look at what Brian Cardinal and Adonal Foyle cost last season.

Spurs management tend to make smart moves, not like other franchises where overpaid players seems to be the norm, what make you think that they would overpay again?

At least you have Rose under contract at the average salary for the next 4 seasons. With Marshall you could lose him. If he "doesn't contribute" as you say then you just gave up someone who has been a longtime playoff performer for nothing...well, nothing except for paring down payroll.

It's a risk, sure, but for winning you have to take risk, and in this case, beeing in a bad situation (and undersized and overpaid player) more are the chances of winning than losing, don't you think? deal

So you think. What happens when he's a bust? You just created the problem of finding a reserve bigman and, ugh, you still have Nesterovic starting at center.

It seems you know little of FIBA basketball, have you seen Scola's games? Scola has been prving himself year after year, in Euroleague and with his NT, has faced NBA players when he was young (was MVP in an U-22 PanAmerican tournament, outplaying inside players Randolph, Gooden, Boozer amongs others current good NBA players, Argentina beat USA team by 15 pts then), he showed his value against 2 consecutive Dream Teams (both in Indianapolis and Athens) showing one on one moves (shwoing individual skills, not just team play, like other FIBA players do, and then fail in NBA), his stats in Olimpics were almost as valuable as Manu's, and you still are afraid of him beeing a bust? it's better to stick to lik than to take a small risk supposed in the trade and the future coming of Scola?

get what they want which is a cheap reserve bigman in place of Lik. I'm not sure about you but I want to see a Spurs team which isn't going to let money get in the way of putting the best team they can on the court.

Scola is waaay better than Lik, he won't be just a reserve with no minutes, and won't be overpaid neither...

Here we are again with the height thing. If height made a player a real bigman Ostertag would be the second coming of Wilt the Stilt. You guys are so predictable, height, jumpshooting. that. Let's get someone who knows how to play in the paint, just not someone who looks like a "really big man"...

Your Ostertag analogy must be product of ignorance, Scola is not just taller than Malik, he's waaaaay better than Malik regarding Basketball IQ, shooting range, Ballhandling, dribbling, overall skills, footwork and fundamentals.
There's a phrase from a guy in Spurs Report Forum I remeber he wrote after watching Scola's videos: "Malik wouldn't do that even on an empty court",
that phrase portrays perfectly the skills gap between.

[spur219]

If we could get Marshall for Malik that would be awesome. Donny can sure play and has a lot of talent and does hustle. But it won't happen.

[SPARKY]

Sparky, Aggie beat you badly, why looking for beeing beating more?

Maybe you need to stop beating yourself off.

Why wouldn't make sense? care to explain?

'tis sarcasm, captain.

Spurs management tend to make smart moves, not like other franchises where overpaid players seems to be the norm, what make you think that they would overpay again?

Ugh. Because the market for bigs in the NBA dictates that. Again, look at what Cardinal and Foyle cost last summer. Bigs dont come cheap in this league. Rose's deal looks like a bargain in comparison.

It's a risk, sure, but for winning you have to take risk, and in this case, beeing in a bad situation (and undersized and overpaid player) more are the chances of winning than losing, don't you think? deal

Given what Rose has done for this team in the postseason I don't see the need to move him because he's somehow not able to help the Spurs win. He's always come ready to play in the playoffs and he was a major piece of the two Spurs' championships and definitely did not keep them from advancing in the other years, at least when he's had the chance to play.

Perhaps you missed that because you weren't a Spurs fan back then.

It seems you know little of FIBA basketball, have you seen Scola's games? Scola has been prving himself year after year, in Euroleague and with his NT, has faced NBA players when he was young (was MVP in an U-22 PanAmerican tournament, outplaying inside players Randolph, Gooden, Boozer amongs others current good NBA players, Argentina beat USA team by 15 pts then), he showed his value against 2 consecutive Dream Teams (both in Indianapolis and Athens) showing one on one moves (shwoing individual skills, not just team play, like other FIBA players do, and then fail in NBA), his stats in Olimpics were almost as valuable as Manu's, and you still are afraid of him beeing a bust? it's better to stick to lik than to take a small risk supposed in the trade and the future coming of Scola?

There are no guarantees that Scola could perform as well with a NBA team. International bigmen have a tendency to struggle to adjust to the physicality of the NBA game. Sure, a few have managed but I'm not ready to bet on that. Besides, you don't have to move Rose right now to be able to bring in Scola next summer.

Scola is waaay better than Lik, he won't be just a reserve with no minutes, and won't be overpaid neither...

Again, speculation. Scola's skills might not translate well to the NBA game, especially given the difference in the defensive rules.

Your Ostertag analogy must be product of ignorance,

No, it's a product of your ignorance because clearly it points out the fallacy of relying on height and size to judge a bigman's value.

Scola is not just taller than Malik, he's waaaaay better than Malik regarding Basketball IQ, Ballhandling, dribbling, overall skills, footwork and fundamentals.

Again, speculation. One thing is for certain, however, and that is that Scola has not routinely faced the physical style of play that he would see in the NBA night in and night out. We've already seen how well a technically sound big like Rasho has handled that.

[2centsworth]

Sparky,

Why are you defending Malik to the death? He isn't all that important in the overall scheme of things. Even 90 year old Kevin Willis took minutes from Malik.

[SPARKY]

Sparky,

Why are you defending Malik to the death? He isn't all that important in the overall scheme of things. Even 90 year old Kevin Willis took minutes from Malik.

Actually, he is pretty significant all things considered. With a finesse style center like Nesterovic in the starting lineup the Spurs need a little more physicality in the frontcourt rotation, yet they also need bigs who can play in an uptempo game. Rose is the only reserve who fits that description.

After seeing the Spurs exit from the postseason last year because they were owned in the paint the last thing I want to see is them get softer up front. If you move Rose for Marshall you are doing that. I don't give a damn if he can hit 20 foot Js Horry can do that. But you need guys who are not afraid to attack the glass and exert themselves in the paint.

So far every argument I've seen for moving Malik and bringing in someone else ignores that. It is foolish given what really matters when it comes to the NBA paint. Toughness and physical aggression matters a lot more than pure technical skill.

The Spurs ed up in the 2004 postseason by going with a finesse oriented frontcourt and they are headed back down that path this season.

[2centsworth]

After seeing the Spurs exit from the postseason last year because they were owned in the paint the last thing I want to see is them get softer up front.

It was more the lack of jump shooting. Championship teams were laced with solid clutch jump shooters. I'll agree we're soft inside, but Malik is not making himself the answer. BTW, Marshall isn't the answer either. I rather have Antonio Davis or someone like that. Maybe that why coaches want Malone so badly.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

2cents, you should have read enough Marcus Bryant by now to understand why Sparky is defending Malik like he is.

[SPARKY]

It was more the lack of jump shooting. Championship teams were laced with solid clutch jump shooters.

Did the Spurs not have such shooters in 2001, 2002, and 2004? Shooters are only as good as the looks they get. Those looks are dependent on what a defense is able to do to them, which of course means how quick defenders can close out on them, which in turn is contingent on the quality of the opponents' interior defense.

I'll agree we're soft inside, but Malik is not making himself the answer. BTW, Marshall isn't the answer either. I rather have Antonio Davis or someone like that. Maybe that why coaches want Malone so badly.

There you go. Think about that for a minute. The Spurs want a Karl Malone because of his physical presence yet they are willing to make a move that would make them less physical up front. Now why might that be? Again, Rose's contract.

[SPARKY]

2cents, you should have read enough Marcus Bryant by now to understand why Sparky is defending Malik like he is.

SPARKY is defending Malik Rose because it's obvious to anyone with half a clue about the game that the last thing the Spurs need is to get softer up front. Whatever you have with Marcus Bryant talk to him about it.

[2centsworth]

solid clutch jump shooters

Did you conveniently leave out the word "CLUTCH". Also, Tim Duncan being injured had something to do with not winning in one of those years. But I could be wrong, Maybe if Malik plays we're on a steak of 6 str8 championships.

[SPARKY]

Duncan was out in 2000.

Shooters are only as good as the looks they get. Manu and Bowen shot significantly better in the 2003 series against LA than in 2004. Now why is that? Did some of their clutchness magically disappear during the intervening year? Or perhaps, just perhaps, the Laker frontcourt improved while the Spurs' got weaker, thereby improving the Laker perimeter defense by freeing up the Laker perimeter players to devote more attention to the Spurs shooters.

It's no coincidence that the Spurs dropped the Shaq-Kobe-Phil Lakers in the year in which they had the best, most physical frontcourt rotation and the Lakers had their worst. Prior to 2003 and after the Lakers had much better frontcourts.

People act as though you can disassociate the quality of looks from the penetration and your post game. You can't. If you get good penetration and post play then that opens up the outside game with good looks for your shooters.

In 2004 LA shut down the paint after the 1st game and they took the series. Also, incredibly, the Spurs' shooters went cold.

[2centsworth]

Shooters are only as good as the looks they get

Forgot, Malik creates better looks for everyone. Reasons why we lost last year other than frontcourt strength:

1. No backup PG to bail out Tony

2. No Stephen Jackson to hit clutch 3's

3. Hedo disappeared.

4. Horry couldn't hit anything, even the open looks

5. .04 seconds

6. Brown wasn't on the team in '03


Not arguing Front Court getting stronger isn't a good thing. Just Malik isn't fitting the bill.

[SPARKY]

Malik gives you another guy who isn't afraid to exert himself in the offensive paint. He is not afraid to attack the rim and to establish position. If you have guys who play weak up front then that allows the opponent to control the paint with less effort and to spend more effort on defending the perimeter.

Remember how Parker torched the Lakers in Game 1 of that series? Why'd that stop? Did it stop because he forgot how to drive? Because the Spurs stopped shooting well? No. It stopped because the Lakers changed up their defense and focused on shutting down the paint from penetration by the Spurs guards as well as the Spurs' interior play. Lakers got much more physical up front and the Spurs didn't respond in kind.

That was the problem. Here we are again and now the Spurs are back to Nesterovic starting (when healthy) with Horry as the primary backup bigman.

How to beat the Spurs isn't a secret. LA showed how last season.