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Shaq
Shaq is the best player with 50%FT.
Jordan had everything, he was a scorer, he made everyone better, he is the reason why we invented the word clutch, but most important , he was a leader, what I don't really think Shaq is.
Does anyone ever questioned the fact that MJ was the boss of the league?
Shaq doesn't have the same aura.
Udonis Haslem was playing well last year, one of the biggest Spurs blunders of all time IMO, this guy is gonna turn into a of a player.Udonis Haslem are putting up numbers
I agree with LJ's assesment.
Taking a group of rag tag players, and making them championship quality somethin else.
I dont respect the fat ass much, but, he got in shape, and hes bustin his ass. Hes earned a tiny bit of respect from me.
Does Stan Van Gundy deserve a little credit also?
Jordan will alway be tops in my mind cuz of his fire and sheer will to win. When you add it all up, the talent, heart, and the smart, he is just unmatched. I don't know how things play out if he doesn't take 2 years off....you could argue those were needed to keep from burnout or else the bulls 2nd 3-peet wouldn't have occurred. But to think that he could have led a modern era team to 8 straight les....could have being key, but still...that is just amazing to think....not to mention the epic battles with the pistons, and him finally getting over the hump against that team....
Interesting topic for discussion. Well, this is coming from a guy who has NEVER liked Shaq, respected yes, liked-no freakin' way. However, I have to give credit where credit is due. Yes, Shaq is big, ok he's ing huge. The way I look at it is he uses what he supposed to use to be a dominant basketball player. What can you do if Shaq is stronger and bigger than everyone else? He uses his size to his advantage. If I was Shaq I wouldn't give a about hitting fade away jumpers in the lane, or spotting up for open jumpers at the FT line. I would muscle guys down low in the paint, lower my shoulder into them, and physically dominate other teams, that just what Shaq does. In the same sense that you couldn't tell Jordan to not jump as high, not be more athletic than all other players, you can't expect Shaq to make any apologies for the way he plays ball. He uses his physical assets to their maximum potential, it just so happens that no one else in the league has those same physical assets. Just like when MJ was playing, nobody could match his physical assets. If you've got that advantage use it, , use it until you're too old or someone finally steps up and stops you, hasn't happened to Shaq yet.
Now, in terms of basketball talent and ability, Shaq (IMO) can't hold a candle to post players like our own DR and TD, Hakeem, McHale, Moses Malone, the list goes on and on. BUT, in terms of utilizing his physial assets on a basketball court, he does that damn well, to the tune of 3 rings. In my book he still has a ways to go to be considered the greatest player ever, but one of the best, sure.
respect the 'fro
Remember cats...it's all about the system....
Triangle Offense.....9 Rings
Phil Jax molded those players to even be in this discussion.
THe system helped, but it wasn't the SYSTEM. PHIL doesn't win jack, without MJ, SP, KB, Shaq. If he goes to a team that doesn't have 2 of the top five players in the game and wins. I'll give him all the credit in the world. Until then, he's won because of his players, not because of his coaching or system.
You maybe right...but to consistently do it is pretty damn amazing...plus Pippen wasn't a top 50 player of all time until he won his first few championships. None of those players won jack, until Jax showed up.
ok, crumbs.Remember cats...it's all about the system....
If this " le" is based on championships, the Bill Russell is the best player of all time. His teams won 9 les in 10 years.
Got two words for you: Tex Winter. Mr. Jackson will struggle in any subsequent coaching gigs without the old man to run his offense. Phil handles the players. The assistants handle the Xs and Os.Triangle Offense.....9 Rings
Phil Jax molded those players to even be in this discussion.
whats the difference between Pop and him?
Better assistants and players maybe.
Uh huh?????
Shaq in no way can be considered the greatest single player even if gets another championship. This guy has never led I believe a single statistical season category in the NBA, lags far behind improving a team coming into the league (ala David Robinson), never won multiple MVPS like Jordan or Kareem, and never won without another great player, i.e, Kobe, and yes he has that again = Wade. Much of the year, Wade has been the difference on that team as much as him. Kids a stud, Shaq helps make him great but the kid is great anyway period. Wade was the difference maker in late 4th like Kobe used to be most of time in LA runs.
Last edited by Rummpd; 02-14-2005 at 11:44 PM.
I disagree.No player in NBA history could match that.
Sincerly,
Bill Russell
Dude's got 5 MVP's and 11 rings and was the most dominant player of his era and arguably the best to play the position.
Med is right, the system does help...Tex Winter's system.
Sorry to bring this back to da front page, but I can't believe this thread went 3 pages until someone finally mentioned the name Bill Russell. Not only did the man win 11 les in 13 years, he also made the Finals in his 2nd year and lost to the St. Louis Hawks and Bob Pe t. The only time he didn't make the Finals was in 1967, and it took a then-record 69 win Philly team led by Wilt to up-end them.
The dude won a le as a rookie, won 8 straight les starting in his 3rd year, and then won back to back les to close out his career. His last le was the sweetest, when the Celtics beat the Baylor/West/Wilt led Lakers in 7 Games. He was also player/HEAD COACH for his last 3 years (in which he won 2 rings). Want more? He led the unheard of University of San Francisco to 2 NCCA les as a player, and also won an Olympic Gold Medal.
The dude changed the game with his defense and rebounding - Red Auerbach was able to invent the fast break because of his blocked shots and rebounding. He was unquestionably the best defensive player of all time, and one of the two best rebounders of all time along with Wilt. His offense, while not spectacular, was still very good. In fact, I would say that his offense was much better than Shaq's defense.
His detractors will point to the fact that he played with great teammates and for a great coach. Well, he won les after Bob Cousy retired, and he won les before John Havlicek was in the NBA. Yes, Auerbach was his coach for 9 of his les, but Russell COACHED HIMSELF for 2 more championships.
Other detractors will say there weren't as many teams and rounds of playoffs back then. True, but 11 in 13 is still 11 in 13. And those Celtics teams still had to go through teams led by some of the greatest players ever: Wilt, Oscar, West, Baylor, Pet , Reed, etc...Still others will say players weren't as big and strong back then they are now. That may be true, but how many players in NBA history were bigger and/or better than Chamberlain, who Russell had to battle almost every year in the playoffs?
Want even more? His record is something like 9-0 in GAME 7s!! Talk about a money player. Compare that to Shaq, who didn't even make the playoffs as a rookie, and then got SWEPT out of the playoffs in 94, 95, 96, 98 AND 99. That is 5 out of 6 years that his teams got SWEPT!!!!
I'm sorry, man, but I just get a little ticked off when Bill Russell isn't even in the conversation as the greatest player of all time. Peace out.
this is the dumbest thread timvp has ever started
seriously this is ghostwriter-esque
you claim shaq made penny and kobe into superstars and they were crap without him. wtf did jordan make pippen into, NBA's TOP 50 TEAM . what the did pippen do without Jordan, nothing but ass and ties son. best perimeter defender of all time my ass.
you claim mj was as athletic as anyone ever and that was his advantage. you know who was more athletic than mj? Harold ing Miner thats who. what the ever happened to that piece of .
seriously did ghostwriter get timvp's password or something.
Jordan was the crunch-time player that Shaq is not, and cannot be.
Hakeem was not just THE MAN during the game,but also at the end. Its not just that Shaq is a low post player, and so less able to "create" for himself; he is able to be neutralized, historically, but double and triple-teaming, where Jordan ALWAYS found a way, no matter what.
Kobe was similar to Jordan in this way, though he was never clearly "THE MAN. " In this way, Kobe did his part, and Shaq did his. Jordan was better than either of them in every way; clutchness, playoff success, regular season success, scoring, "basketball IQ", leadership-you name it.
Now, IF Shaq wins without Kobe, we have to re-evaluate him. Even then, I don't think he has the AMAZING combination of skills that Jordan brought, including defense, leadership, clutch ability to score at the end of games, and finally basketball IQ, to reach Jordan's level. Jordan left the game (the first time) probably to have won the 2 in between that he didn't win, came back and won more, again probably capable of winning another or 2.
Shaq's best years are behind him; he can still have peak performances, but as we saw in the playoffs last year, without at least 2 days off he is not capable of big games anymore. And he can be neutralized, something that Jordan was never susceptible to.
I don't think you can isolate Russell as "the player" out of the celtic's success, though he did get the MVP's. He was not the offensive player, EVER, on that team, and thus did not have the chance to show his clutchness. He had everything else, though, including great leadership skills. He was a GREAT defensive player, and that is to be commended. And the fact that he was part of so much success means something. But I can't give him top 1-3, IMO. He is top 5, though.
let ShaQ surpass Jordan's all-time best regular season record first. lead his team to a 65 wins this season and let's see....
Bump!
"He makes very good players into superstars."
Maybe 3 or 4 years ago, but not since. Shaq drew some attention this year, when he wasn't hurt or sitting with fouls, but Wade creates his own shots, and he hits them, with or without Shaq. Wade is pretty much 1 on 5.
Duncan>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>shaq!
He is the most dominant. Not the best ever. Michael Jordan is the best ever.
He was a great role player in this year's finals.
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