The Pop Show Audio from today

[timvp]

So it's not a reward? Manu could've played like crap in 03 and still be the starter in the 04 season?

If the Spurs would have won the championship last season, Hedo would probably be starting right now with Manu coming off the bench.

[Rick Von Braun]

Actually, the goal should be playing him the least amount of minutes, period.




Incorrect. The total time span starts when the ball is tipped and ends when the game is over. If he doesn't start, he's resting on the sidelines during a time when he'd usually be playing.

What you don't understand is that for any fix total amount of minutes you want to play him (this is any given constant you want), the goal is to maximize the resting time in between playing minutes. Resting time before the first playing interval or after the last playing interval are not considered because he is not resting from a previous playing interval or saving energy for the next playing interval. At the beginning of the game he is already rested, so he doesn't need to rest. At the end of the game, even if he is dead tired it doesn't matter, because he will have time to recover for the next game. The critical issue here is the resting time between playing intervals. You want to maximize this in order to maximize player productivity when he is on the field during the game. If a player is too tired after a particular playing interval, and the resting time is not sufficient, the player will decrease productivity in the next playing interval. Let me reemphasize that the total amount of minutes played should remain constant for whatever scheduling policy you enforce.

For example, let's assume you want to play him for 24 minutes. This is the total time you want to play him, and this is a given constant. What is the worst and optimal scheduling policy that minimizes and maximizes resting time in between playing intervals?

Assuming you don't have constraints as to the maximum playing interval (allow me this to make the explanation simpler), the worst scheduling would be to play him 3rd and 4th quarter of the game. He would rest the 1st and 2nd quarter, and then play continuously for 24 minutes (any two consecutive quarters would do, not considering timeouts or half period resting). This policy would give him 0 minutes of resting time between playing intervals, because he would play just one big time interval. The best sheduling policy would be to play him the entire 1st quarter, rest him the 2nd and 3rd quarter, and then playing him the last quarter. The total amount of time played would be 24 minutes (same as the previous case), BUT the resting time between playing intervals would be maximized to 24 minutes (instead of 0 minutes as the worst case above).

Of course, there are other constraints like the maximum playing interval y, critical parts of the game, crunch time etc. The strategy that yields maximum benefits still consists of playing the player at the beginning and end of the game, not only in terms of maximizing resting time between playing periods but also to increase the flexibility of a dynamic scheduling policy determined by a coach (you can mathematically prove the last statement, but not in this forum). This is a basic constraint scheduling problem.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I'd go for it.

But would the Manu Defenders?


QUESTION.

Whats with the "Manu defenders" crap? All you're doing with this post is trying to cover your ass so that every time someone tries to disagree about the subject and explain his or her reasoning they are immediately "Manu defenders". Why don't you just post your opinion and we supposed "Manu defenders" will post ours, no need to put labels. HOWEVER, I do agree that Manu will not be able to play the rest of the season at this pace, at least not this season. Coming off the bench isn't so bad, and I agree that Manu productiveness is better used in the 4th quarter. Although I think Manu would see it as sort of a demotion LOL. I say start him, but play him as a bench player and put him in only in key moments when he is needed. Someone already said this, so I'm just agreeing.

[Jimcs50]

The DRob question came to my mind too.

[timvp]

Interesting point, RVB.

Resting time before the first playing interval or after the last playing interval are not considered because he is not resting from a previous playing interval or saving energy for the next playing interval.

I think this is the flaw in the logic. If he is resting to start the game, he is saving energy for the next playing interval. It also shortens the game for him, so there is less chance that he will play extended minutes.

Also, if the Spurs can rest him at the end of the second quarter and the beginning of the third quarter, that gives him a huge rest that isn't available if he's a starter. That could give him at least 30 minutes of actual time that he can rest before the necessary second half surge.

[timvp]

Whats with the "Manu defenders" crap? All you're doing with this post is trying to cover your ass so that every time someone tries to disagree about the subject and explain his or her reasoning they are immediately "Manu defenders". Why don't you just post your opinion and we supposed "Manu defenders" will post ours, no need to put labels.

I didn't know it was a bad thing being a Manu Defender. People call me out for defending Rose, AJ and others and I don't get offended.

But if it comes across that way, I'll bench that term and won't use it anymore.

[Jimcs50]

I am a Manu defender. I'd defend him til my death.

[gregpschneid]

You guys have to realize how much a basketball season can take away from you physically. Anyone here actually played compe ive basketball? It's very difficult to maintain your strength thoughout a season and you can even lose muscle if you are over training( I've seen people lose 20lbs of muscle through a season). The nba season is way too long, especially if you play competively during the summer!

I think that the number of games hurts the development of players in the nba, since they miss out on practice time. I really think they should cut some games, but this will never happen.

Manu is simply overtrained right now and fatigued, when this happens you lose strength and are more likely to injure yourself.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I didn't know it was a bad thing being a Manu Defender. People call me out for defending Rose, AJ and others and I don't get offended.

But if it comes across that way, I'll bench that term and won't use it anymore.

No prob, its just that IMO, "Manu defender" sort of implies defending Manu without much thought or reason other than liking him. I like the way you handled the issue though, spoken like a reasonable and thoughtful person, shows class. Not many people would have responded that way. You alright in my book

[Rick Von Braun]

Interesting point, RVB.

I think this is the flaw in the logic. If he is resting to start the game, he is saving energy for the next playing interval.

Nope, he is not. This point is crucial. Let me give you another example. Let's say you have to run three 1-mile segments in a running compe ion for a total of 3 miles. You have to run the first mile as fast as you can, then rest for a certain period of time, then run the 2nd segment, then rest for a certain period of time, and finally run the last segment. Your total time (performance) is measured by timing each segment run, and summing up all your times for each segment. Starting time and resting time is not considered, only actual running time is important for performance purposes. Also assume you go all out in each segment, and run as fast as you can, and you haven't run in the previous 24hrs of the compe ion. The competion starts at 10:00am.

Now I'll give 2 options. In the first one, you start running at 10:00am, run the first mile as fast as you can, then rest for 9 minutes, then run the 2nd mile as fast as you can, then rest for another 9 minutes, and you finally run the last run. In the second one, you start running at 10:12am, run the first mile as fast as you can, then rest for 3 minutes, run the 2nd mile as fast as you can, then rest for 3 minutes, and finally run the last mile. Which of the 2 options you think you will perform better?

Exactly. The first 12 minutes of rest are irrelevant, because you are already well rested (24hrs). The difference between 24 hrs or 24:12 hrs is insignificant. The difference between resting 9 minutes or 3 minutes in between mile segments is 3 times larger. I hope you catch my drift now.

Let's assume Pop wants to play Manu 30 minutes and he wants to play him in three segments of 10 minutes each (this is just a simple example to illustrate the point, I am not suggesting this strategy!). In the first option, Pop plays him at the start of the 1st quarter for 10 minutes, then rests him for 9 minutes, then plays him 10 more minutes, rests him for 9 minutes and finally plays him the last 10 minutes. In the second option, Pop rests Manu the entire first quarter, then plays him 10 minutes, rests him for 3 minutes, plays him another 10 minutes, rests him for 3 minutes, and finally plays him 10 minutes. The total number of minutes played in boht cases is 30 minutes, but it is quite obvious that Manu will be more rested by Pop using the 1st option than the 2nd one. The 1st quarter rest is irrelevant, because Manu starts the game with sufficient rest (at least 24hrs) and 12 more minutes won't make a difference. Having 3 times more resting time between playing intervals does make a significant difference.

It also shortens the game for him, so there is less chance that he will play extended minutes.

I don't think this relevant. Pop is very strict and stubborn with respect to the total number of minutes a player must play, in particular when the player is recovering from injury and/or not well rested. After the injury, Manu played a certain number of predetermined minutes that Pop had in mind, and he was very strict to enforce it, independently of the final game's result or Manu's performance (see Manu's minutes starting with the Detroit's game). The slow increase was strictly enforced.

Also, if the Spurs can rest him at the end of the second quarter and the beginning of the third quarter, that gives him a huge rest that isn't available if he's a starter. That could give him at least 30 minutes of actual time that he can rest before the necessary second half surge.

That is fine, but it is completely orthogonal to start using him from the beginning of the game. Manu doesn't have to start the 3rd quarter, but it is important for him to start in the 1st quarter in order to maximize the resting time between playing intervals.

Cheers!