Dennis Rodman Belongs in the Hall of Fame

[mojorizen7]

Abso inglutely he does.
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/259884/dennis_rodman/
^ This vid worth your time just for the old school tune

[Ode to Triple Ocho]

Lol at Kobe being on any great defensive team. He's a average to good defender right now. When he wants to, he might be able to lock someone down. He's vastly overrated on D.

Your Kobe hatred is unhealthy.

[namlook]

Lol at Kobe being on any great defensive team. He's a average to good defender right now. When he wants to, he might be able to lock someone down. He's vastly overrated on D.

The all-defensive teams are not media awards so they actually mean something. Kobe has been on the all-defensive teams for nine seasons and first team SEVEN times including the past four seasons. That's voted on by the head coaches, not the media. So if you think you know more about defense than the head coaches let me laugh in your face.

[namlook]

Rodman was great BEFORE he won all those rebounding les. He was fantastic as a defender, and did all the necessary dirty work, but after he got obsessed with getting rebounds, he hung around the basket, doing nothing else.

Rodman was also a great defender during many of the seasons that he won rebounding les. He averaged 18.7 rebounds one season with the Pistons. 18.3 another season.

Rodman was on all-defense teams from 1988 to 1996 including first team seven times. From 1991 to 1996 he also averaged 17 rebounds a game leading the league in rebounding each of those seasons. So clearly there was a lot of overlap there. Even with the Bulls he was first team all-defense in 1995-96 and also led the league in rebounding that year. His last couple seasons with the Bulls he wasn't playing the same level of defense, but to say he stopped playing great defense when he started winning rebounding les is not accurate.

[hitmanyr2k]

The all-defensive teams are not media awards so they actually mean something. Kobe has been on the all-defensive teams for nine seasons and first team SEVEN times including the past four seasons. That's voted on by the head coaches, not the media. So if you think you know more about defense than the head coaches let me laugh in your face.

I honestly don't think Kobe has truly earned a All-Defense first team selection since 2004. His defense has been very much overrated since then. I think he gets selected based on reputation from his earlier years and also because there's really no great defensive compe ion at his position. In 2006 and 2007 in particular even die-hard Laker fans (and Kobe worshippers on LG.net) were saying "what the " when Kobe was selected on the first team. They knew the guy hadn't earned it.

So yeah, Kobe has the defensive accolades but he's never going to be looked at as one of all-time great defenders as his accolades would suggest. He's been horribly inconsistent on that end of the floor for a long time now and his defense simply doesn't affect a game as much as the true elite defenders listed in this thread. His very mediocre defensive ratings the last 5 years bear that out.

[Ode to Triple Ocho]

What do you coach, re s? I gave you the stats. If stats don't prove a players greatness, what does, genius. Kobe has never even been close to a great defender. Get out of here with that .

Actually you're the only one looking re ed with that nonsense.

If you actually believe that garbage you don't know basketball. Plain and simple.\

The Noah comparison was dumb, but Rodman wouldn't be regarded nearly as great of a defender in this era basketball. Late 80's a flagrant foul was considered 'great defense'. Kobe has been an elite man to man defender in a era without hand checking and throughout an era where the league kept changing the rules to benefit the quick perimeter ball handler. He's also an absolutely elite team double team/roamer, in the Pippen mold.

The only thing mediocre about Kobe's defense is running through screens. Man to man? And the tendency to not respect SCRUBS or take defensive plays off when he's playing 40 minutes and forced to carry the offensive load.

Basically, Lakaluva has no ing idea what he's talking about. I guarantee 99% of the coaches would consider Kobe one of the best, if not the best in the league.

[Ode to Triple Ocho]

I honestly don't think Kobe has truly earned a All-Defense first team selection since 2004. His defense has been very much overrated since then. I think he gets selected based on reputation from his earlier years and also because there's really no great defensive compe ion at his position. In 2006 and 2007 in particular even die-hard Laker fans (and Kobe worshippers on LG.net) were saying "what the " when Kobe was selected on the first team. They knew the guy hadn't earned it.

Sorry you're ing dumb. Kobe constantly shut down players like Mcgrady in Wade man to man when he wanted. in 2006, 2007 Kobe had one of if not the worst interior defensive front court in the NBA. Yet was still exceptional on D.

You do realize in 06/07 half of the Lakers fanbase were Shaq jockers and hated Kobe Bryant's guts, right?

So yeah, Kobe has the defensive accolades but he's never going to be looked at as one of all-time great defenders as his accolades would suggest. He's been horribly inconsistent on that end of the floor for a long time now and his defense simply doesn't affect a game as much as the true elite defenders listed in this thread. His very mediocre defensive ratings the last 5 years bear that out.

Actually Kobe earned every single one of his defensive accolades. Larry Brown's informed opinion > your dumb opinion. It really doesn't matter as Kobe is already looked as an all-time elite defender by the people that matter. Nobody really gives a what a Kobe hater spews on the internet about him

[hitmanyr2k]

Sorry you're ing dumb. Kobe constantly shut down players like Mcgrady in Wade man to man when he wanted. in 2006, 2007 Kobe had one of if not the worst interior defensive front court in the NBA. Yet was still exceptional on D.

You do realize in 06/07 half of the Lakers fanbase were Shaq jockers and hated Kobe Bryant's guts, right?


Actually Kobe earned every single one of his defensive accolades. Larry Brown's informed opinoin > your dumb opinion. It really doesn't matter as Kobe is already looked as an all-time elite defender by the people that matter. Nobody really gives a what a Kobe hater spews on the internet about him

Whatever Corky. Kobe has never consistently done anything on the defensive end. Even the most devoted Kobe groupie will tell you his defense wasn't worth a damn in 2006 or 2007...certainly not worthy of All-Defense first team. The guy had a defensive rating of 105 in 2006 which is average. Then he has a defensive rating of 109 in 2007. That rating is worthy of Steve Nash

Kobe may show up and try play defense against one of his peers on nationally televised games every now and then but that doesn't mean he's consistent and it certainly doesn't mean he deserves first team All-Defense. Elite defenders show up every night and make an impact on the game. Kobe doesn't do that. His impact on the game comes mostly from shot attempts

[Muser]

at Kobe/Camby being elite defenders. At least lakaluva gets it.

[ambchang]

Rodman was also a great defender during many of the seasons that he won rebounding les. He averaged 18.7 rebounds one season with the Pistons. 18.3 another season.

Rodman was on all-defense teams from 1988 to 1996 including first team seven times. From 1991 to 1996 he also averaged 17 rebounds a game leading the league in rebounding each of those seasons. So clearly there was a lot of overlap there. Even with the Bulls he was first team all-defense in 1995-96 and also led the league in rebounding that year. His last couple seasons with the Bulls he wasn't playing the same level of defense, but to say he stopped playing great defense when he started winning rebounding les is not accurate.

I am fully aware of the All-D teams and rebounding les he won. However, Rodman made most of his All-D teams in the later half due to reputation more than what he actually did on the court.

Rodman was traded to the Spurs for Sean Elliott after two years leading the league in rebounding. Elliott, while a fantastic SF, is nowhere worth a HOF material player in his prime at any point in his career.

The following are the Pistons defensive ranking in the years Rodman gained more playing time. Sure the performance of Detroit depends on quite a few things, but it's a good reflection on Rodman's impact on the team's defense:

89-90: 2nd of 27. Rodman averages 29 mins and 9.7 rebs.
90-91: 4th of 27. Rodman averages 33.5 mins and 12.5 rebs.
91-92: 6th of 27. Rodman averages 40.3 mins and 18.7 rebs.
92-93: 15th of 27. Rodman averages 38.9 mins and 18.3 rebs.
93-94: 26th of 27. Rodman traded. Also note that the Pistons sucked that season, and it wasn't just Rodman leaving.

As for the Spurs:
92-93: 10th of 27. Before Rodman joined.
93-94: 9th of 27. Rodman averages 37.8 mins and 17.3 rebs.
94-95: 5th of 27. 32 min and 16.8 rebs.
95-96: 8th of 27. Rodman traded for Will Perdue.
96-97: 27th of 27th. Robinson was hurt.

As you can see, Rodman's reboudning doesn't really have too much effect on his teams' defensive rankings. he still won his All-D selections and such, but his effectiveness has undoubtedly declined.

Instead of the defensive demon who would chase perimeter players, body up post players, and being a total annoyance out there, he would just hang out around the basket area, waiting for rebounds, leaving the new breed of tall SFs draining jumper after jumper (most representatively Robert Horry).

Don't get me wrong, I think Rodman was the best rebounding of all time, and he was also the best defensive player ever during the early parts of his career. It's a shame he went with all the hoopla and destroyed his game.

[Chieflion]

I am fully aware of the All-D teams and rebounding les he won. However, Rodman made most of his All-D teams in the later half due to reputation more than what he actually did on the court.

Rodman was traded to the Spurs for Sean Elliott after two years leading the league in rebounding. Elliott, while a fantastic SF, is nowhere worth a HOF material player in his prime at any point in his career.

The following are the Pistons defensive ranking in the years Rodman gained more playing time. Sure the performance of Detroit depends on quite a few things, but it's a good reflection on Rodman's impact on the team's defense:

89-90: 2nd of 27. Rodman averages 29 mins and 9.7 rebs.
90-91: 4th of 27. Rodman averages 33.5 mins and 12.5 rebs.
91-92: 6th of 27. Rodman averages 40.3 mins and 18.7 rebs.
92-93: 15th of 27. Rodman averages 38.9 mins and 18.3 rebs.
93-94: 26th of 27. Rodman traded. Also note that the Pistons sucked that season, and it wasn't just Rodman leaving.

As for the Spurs:
92-93: 10th of 27. Before Rodman joined.
93-94: 9th of 27. Rodman averages 37.8 mins and 17.3 rebs.
94-95: 5th of 27. 32 min and 16.8 rebs.
95-96: 8th of 27. Rodman traded for Will Perdue.
96-97: 27th of 27th. Robinson was hurt.

As you can see, Rodman's reboudning doesn't really have too much effect on his teams' defensive rankings. he still won his All-D selections and such, but his effectiveness has undoubtedly declined.

Instead of the defensive demon who would chase perimeter players, body up post players, and being a total annoyance out there, he would just hang out around the basket area, waiting for rebounds, leaving the new breed of tall SFs draining jumper after jumper (most representatively Robert Horry).

Don't get me wrong, I think Rodman was the best rebounding of all time, and he was also the best defensive player ever during the early parts of his career. It's a shame he went with all the hoopla and destroyed his game.

I think you can't make the argument that Rodman's defense declined using the Pistons as an example. The Pistons were on a decline before he got traded to the Spurs.

[Killakobe81]

The Noah comaprison was made in regards to the HOF ... READ IT AGAIN.

Having a difference of opinion does not make anyone "dumb" if they give reasons ...to back up what they believe and dont just post: "rapist" or "mangina" or the various crap posted on here.

You used stats (Lakaluva) to make your argument (even though I said I'm not a stat guy amd i hate awards even more) because i have seen them manipulated in: business, sports education and polotics far too often but to each his own. You tell me in your worklife that you have not seen stats manipulated or someopne less deserving get an award? Is the NBA any different?
I also Argued that rebounding is great but rebounding helps a "team's defense" more than it indicates someones individual defensive prowess ...

The comment about me coaching re s is insensitive ...to your mother ...just kidding ...

But if you want to make this a name calling contest when we were having a reasonable (even if) heated debate...you can go there I will not ...

So after some reflection let me sum up my point ...

Pistons Rodman good to great rebounder AND a HOF level team and man to man defender for a few seasons ...

Bulls Rodman All-world rebounder a good help defender* (if he wasnt leaving too early to chase boards) and a vastly OVERRATED man to man defender...
I guess if you add the early Rodman defense and his later rebounding numbers MAYBE i can see HOF player...and the case has been made by many on here I get it ...don't agree but get it.

But my point is with most HOF players there is something about them that should leave "no doubt" about their candidiacy. ...when you watch them on film. Watch Rodman's old games (the Pistons Dynasty series DVD is a good start) film does not lie. A you tube highlught video is not enough either. Watch the games.
Rebound stats do not indicate how great a defender someone is and I have never seen one (stat) that I trust completely but if you research the web you can find some that do a much better job than rebound totals (or steals or blocks for that matter)

Some think Pippen is overrated (and borderline HOF) and he maybe slightly but I think he is a HOF'er and way better as a defender than Rodman but if we use the criteria Rebounds and DPOY awards he would be classified as the lessor defender.

Rodman is overrated by fans (IMHO) for his personality and energy he brought and maybe underrated by some for his antics ...

I actually loved "young" Rodman when he was a bench player ...I thought he had the potential to be an all-time great defender BUT he decided to focus on rebounding and as of yet the HOF committee agrees with me OVER the GENIUS of Lakaluva ...
Does that mean I am right definitively? No. But I trust their judgement more than yours.

Again I used noah as an example to say hustle and rebound numbers DOES NOT make you a hall of fame player or great defensive player if I did not spell that out clearly enough for the MENSA members that post here my fault...i hope this helps.... I doubt it will ..

And for the kobe shots on here I Said (read the thread) that kobe is sometimesy on defense ...no disagreements here and with the injuries mounting even when he tries hee is less effective than he was ...

But if ONE stop was needed I would take any of the guys on my list OVER rodman and I stand by that statement because Rodman was only truly elite as a defender when he wasnt going after rebound les ... watch Rodman's first 3 years vs. the rest you will see what I mean ...

[Killakobe81]

I am fully aware of the All-D teams and rebounding les he won. However, Rodman made most of his All-D teams in the later half due to reputation more than what he actually did on the court.

Rodman was traded to the Spurs for Sean Elliott after two years leading the league in rebounding. Elliott, while a fantastic SF, is nowhere worth a HOF material player in his prime at any point in his career.

The following are the Pistons defensive ranking in the years Rodman gained more playing time. Sure the performance of Detroit depends on quite a few things, but it's a good reflection on Rodman's impact on the team's defense:

89-90: 2nd of 27. Rodman averages 29 mins and 9.7 rebs.
90-91: 4th of 27. Rodman averages 33.5 mins and 12.5 rebs.
91-92: 6th of 27. Rodman averages 40.3 mins and 18.7 rebs.
92-93: 15th of 27. Rodman averages 38.9 mins and 18.3 rebs.
93-94: 26th of 27. Rodman traded. Also note that the Pistons sucked that season, and it wasn't just Rodman leaving.

As for the Spurs:
92-93: 10th of 27. Before Rodman joined.
93-94: 9th of 27. Rodman averages 37.8 mins and 17.3 rebs.
94-95: 5th of 27. 32 min and 16.8 rebs.
95-96: 8th of 27. Rodman traded for Will Perdue.
96-97: 27th of 27th. Robinson was hurt.

As you can see, Rodman's reboudning doesn't really have too much effect on his teams' defensive rankings. he still won his All-D selections and such, but his effectiveness has undoubtedly declined.

Instead of the defensive demon who would chase perimeter players, body up post players, and being a total annoyance out there, he would just hang out around the basket area, waiting for rebounds, leaving the new breed of tall SFs draining jumper after jumper (most representatively Robert Horry).

Don't get me wrong, I think Rodman was the best rebounding of all time, and he was also the best defensive player ever during the early parts of his career. It's a shame he went with all the hoopla and destroyed his game.

Great post. You summed up my thoughts EXACTLY ...even using stats...

Again I dont trust them but just watch the games and you can see what ambchang and I meant he did not care about defense (as much) he went for stat padding.
He would leave his man to grab the board he did get it (He could of been the best defender of all time (perhaps) and would of get my HOF vote as well (not that it matters)

again I hope my post does not come across as "hate"
I dont hate Rodman and i think for his size his rebound numbers were amazing I just think as a coach I would take 12-13 rebounds with better defense over the extra 5 he would get ...also I think he missed the chance to be the greatest defender of his generation ...

[Killakobe81]

I honestly don't think Kobe has truly earned a All-Defense first team selection since 2004. His defense has been very much overrated since then. I think he gets selected based on reputation from his earlier years and also because there's really no great defensive compe ion at his position. In 2006 and 2007 in particular even die-hard Laker fans (and Kobe worshippers on LG.net) were saying "what the " when Kobe was selected on the first team. They knew the guy hadn't earned it.

So yeah, Kobe has the defensive accolades but he's never going to be looked at as one of all-time great defenders as his accolades would suggest. He's been horribly inconsistent on that end of the floor for a long time now and his defense simply doesn't affect a game as much as the true elite defenders listed in this thread. His very mediocre defensive ratings the last 5 years bear that out.

Agreed. That's why the accolades (aLL NBA/DPOY)mean crap ...but when focused he is very good i think the "elite" days have passed him by ...

But If you needed 1 stop in today's NBA he is in the discussion ...

But in 2007 in particular Kobe made all team NBA defense did not deserve it he was living off the first 5 years of his career much like Rodman did ...

[ambchang]

I think you can't make the argument that Rodman's defense declined using the Pistons as an example. The Pistons were on a decline before he got traded to the Spurs.

True, the Pistons were starting to decline due to the expansion draft (losing their depth), and age/injuries, but Rodman certainly did not do his part in improving the defense like many claimed.

A better indicator was the Spurs defense, it didn't improve dramatically with Rodman, and did not regress dramatically without Rodman. Interestingly, the Spurs actually played the best defense when Rodman went down for 33 games due to injuries/suspensions, and averaging the least minutes and rebounds.