it just show the loosxer mentatality that is been shown by ray.
Question: why were they hypersensitive? Answer: because of Ray's flaming allegations and incessant whining in the press.
Is it a conspiracy? No. Will it be temporary? Yes.
Should it be happening? No.
Does this only happen to the Spurs? No.
I guess officials can be influenced. Thank you. Case closed.
i thinkl it just shows that when ever allen wants somthing who goes to the public.
Ray Allen ed before game one. Why didn't he get in foul trouble then? Ray Allen ed before the last regular season game. Why didn't he get in foul trouble then? The Nuggets ed the whole series. How many times was Bowen in foul trouble?
If you can't man up and watch basketball without blaming the refs after every game, then I don't know what to tell you. Sometimes the breaks go against you. Sack up and take it like a man and wipe the tears away.
Bowen and the rest of the Spurs don't worry about and neither should you.
here is what I think happens:
These refs go eat dinner have a beer whatever... They talk about their job, just like anyone else. they have discussions just like we are having, one ref might say "man that Allen needs to grow up" and another might say that " Bowen is a dirty player" either way they talk and shape opionions amongst themselves. They may think one crew was calling the game totally wrong so they may call it differently. How many times do peoiple form an opinion about someone they have never met. The refs are no different. Are some of them assholes and don't like certain players? yea of course, but just like any other job, peoples pereption about you is part of what you go through. You have to live with it.
I checked around at other NBA boards. Posters on most of these boards generally hate on Bowen as a "dirty" player. Half the posters swear he's maimed or murdered most players in the league. On this one the general concensus was that Bowen was getting hosed by the refs and Allen's whining had done the trick. Many were totally disgusted. If perception is relaity those refs changed the way they called things. It's pretty safe to say if this wasn't an anomaly and refs keep this up Bowen will no longer be an effective player.
Yea I agree with that, but I also think that different refs have a different perception of Bowen. Just like Pippen thinks he sucks and Barkley thinks he is great. What is interesting to me was that ginobli was all over ray allen and Allen did not say a word about that. It almost looked like ginobli took a " if you think bruce is physical wait till I guard you" approach.
Manu got a couple of cheap fouls guarding Allen too. The refs' force shield around Ray was set at maximum level.
Refs screw up. That's a fact. But I just find bias and favoritism a little hard to believe. I'm going to go out on a bit of a limb here and say that the refs' jobs are well-protected and, furthermore, most of them do NOT, repeat NOT, need the added income. I believe most refs have professional backgrounds, even executives on multinational company boards. I think that for the most part they are ethical and probably proud. I think that, if anything, too much ing and moaning would only get under their skin. So I think that most, if not all, of the refs try to call an honest game. But that does not mean that I don't want to throw my television set at some of them from time to time.
I know a lot of them cheated on their income taxes.
Since when did Spur fans turn into Nuggets fans?
You aren't understanding yourself. You keep coming up with scenarios and I keep shooting them down. Then you come up with insults that are only funny in your middle school classes.
But then again, fans whose life is dedicated to blaming the refs typically have an IQ somewhere between an inanimate object and a tree slug.
What are you referring to? You just make a bunch of broad accusations and then when I prove them wrong, you make it even broader. Give me some facts. You have only pointed to opinions so far.What I said was very clear the first time. You just didn't understand it. This is what I said the first time: Please show me where I was referring to the series in 2003. Thank you.
How typical. How did I know the meat of your response would have everything to do about dragging the discussion into the 2003 LA series. I referred to that series as a footnote to highlight problems with consistency in officiating. However, your agenda and 4th grade analysis continues to harp on it because you'd like to make the issue about "whiners" who don't "man up" and are into conspiracy theories. How many times do I need to say that this isn't the issue?
This was the paragraph I was responding to:
Yeah that wasn't all about the LA series. What was I thinking? Man, you've lost it.
It's the same thing over and over again. Every time I trap you, you just make the argument broader and broader. Man up and post something factual for once. Talking in generic terms only makes it seem like you don't know what you are talking about.
Oh yeah, I didn't think you'd have a link to that Pop quote either. Typical TwoHandJam to quote three paragraphs and then make the situation broader so that he can escape.
When in doubt, don't respond.Could your rhetoric be any worse? You sound a little deranged now.
Brilliant.
Translation: I was getting off of the computer. I'll gladly respond now that I have the time.Translation: I rather keep pushing my agenda now because the real discussion scares me. I think you need to "man up" and read the link.
Last edited by timvp; 05-12-2005 at 04:20 PM.
That probably has more to do with just beginning to watch the sport. Most people who know the game can predict with at least a 90% accuracy whether or not a foul is committed. If you can't, then that just means you don't know enough.
Sorry.
They aren't going to be perfect. NBA basketball is the hardest sport on earth to ref. It's a fast game with the best athletes in the world. Of course the refs are going to blow calls here and there, but for the most part they do an awesome job.That's because from one game to the next - and even within the same game, what qualifies as a foul seems pretty subjective at times. The refs just aren't as good as they could be imo.
Have you ever watched international basketball? They have horrible refs. The college game is a lot easier to ref and even there the quality isn't that good.
The glaring problem with NBA refs is that they are allowed to police their own. They are supposed to review and reprimand any underperforming refs with the ultimate authority being the director of officials - himself a referee.
Shows how much you know. The director of officials isn't a ref. He used to be but isn't now.
It's the same way in baseball and football. I'm not sure about hockey, but I'm guessing so.
Ex-refs are not biased. I'd agree that if the refs were being judged by other current refs, that'd be a sticky situation. But each ref is graded after every game. They review the first half at halftime to see what plays they called right and which plays they called wrong. If the refs don't grade high enough, they aren't allowed to advance into the playoffs. If they grade consistently low, they are thrown out of the league.This. Never. Works. Any psychology undergrad will tell you that people cannot be trusted to police themselves because they always have their own best interests at heart. Nobody wants to fire one of their own for incompetence. It's the reason that any investigation in police misconduct for example is invetigated by the department of internal affairs - a separate and presumably more neutral third party organization.
First of all, ex-refs would know better than anyone on how to judge whether a good job was done or not. They've been there and they know how different cir stances lead to different calls.I think the NBA could do two things to improve the quality of its refs:
1) Create a neutral third party to review referee performance and hire/fire refs.
Second of all, I'm not sure if you understand that the refs have a union. To make such a drastic change, you'd have to pass it thru them. I'm not too sure they are going to want to be judged by a bunch of people who haven't lived it.
It might work in theory, but to make this a reality you'd have to come up with a huge set of restrictions. Like in the NFL, only certain things could be reviewed. You can't review judgment calls.2) Change the rules such that each coach could challenge a call once per half. I don't think this would have an adverse effect in terms of slowing down the game. You could even remove one full and/or one 20sec timeout from the current allotment to compensate as I think they're too many timeouts in games anyway.
If you want to limit it to out-of-bounds plays, goaltends and things of that nature, sure it could work. But to me that would be unnecessary. Why halt play for a couple minutes, bring out the monitors and check four calls a game? In the NFL it makes sense because there are a limited number of plays. In the NBA, each team has the ball so many teams that it correcting one or two calls a game isn't worth the hoopla.
Exactly. The Spurs don't complain about the refs in the media and to me that makes them much more fun to watch.
I think maybe whiny fans like TwoHandJam would be better served being Nugget fans or something.
The freak conducts an interview with himself.
Classic.
So true.
The Spurs are all class when it comes to the refs. They argue on the court but when the game is over, they take the result like men and go out and try to win the next game.
Too bad they have fans who are the weeping, Canadien version of George Karl.
i will always believe that spreads are fixed in certain big money games...
Complaining against the refs seems to be deeply embeded in our nature as human beings. In every single sport, fans complain against the refs. In Argentina, when the refs enter the soccer field before a game (the ref and the two linesmen do it together, 5 minutes before the game starts), the fans boo and whistle like there was no tomorrow. I find it so stupid.
I agree with all timvp says. Specially with the fact that oficiating an NBA game must be a tough job, and the NBA refs do a good job at it.
The proof of this is that after an important game, if you go to the fan boards of the two teams that just played, you will find that in both boards, fans are complaining about the refs.
They say that if a jury's veredict does not satisfy either party, then justice has been served. Same thing here. The fact that everybody complains against the refs is proof enough that there is no fix.
Ask a Lakers fan and he will say that Tim gets away with fouls all the time. Ask a Spurs fan and he will say Tim does not get enough calls. And the list goes on and on.
Make in it a habit to complain against the refs is weak. Man, just go the LG.net and read their equivalent of our Game Blog. Its pathetic.
I hope Spurs fan don't mutate into Laker or Denver fans. That would be sad.
Well said.
Every sport has fans complaining about the refs. It's what they do.
Some are smart enough to realize that and just sit back and enjoy the game. Others watch games just to sit there and cry about the refs. It's pathetic, really.
If anyone thinks these refs are good, they are kidding themselves.
They blow OBVIOUS calls, OBVIOUS.
But, dont dare state that, or your "not a real spurs fan"
At the risk of having a stream of profanity thrown at me, did it ever occur to you that the calls are only obvious to the 20 cameras they have trained on everything on the court, and the fact that they show the replays after choosing the view with the best angle of the play and slow it down for all of us to see? Stand down there and watch 10 of the best athletes in the world running up and down the court slamming into each other and bodies will hit the floor before you even get the whistle in your mouth. Don't even take into account posession, the shot clock, the game clock, the three second rule, inbounds plays and the three point line, which are all things that the officials have to watch for 48 minutes and you realize what a small percentage they miss, and how few completely obvious ones they miss. Watch how horrible the calls were in the olympics, as a good example. Basketball is difficult to officiate, and they do a good job.
That's why I think there was something else involved, but I've already said that.
You got me there. NBA refs > Olympic officials.
Good rebuttal timvp. You claimed yourself that the refs were hypersensitive to Bowen. Any ideas as to why all the scrutiny on Bowen? Maybe because Ray Allen went nuts in the press? Nah, couldn't have anything to do with it.
The freak conducts an interview with himself.
Classic.
I catch you dead to rights on the very issue I've been flogging and the best you can come up with is a smilie. Nice.
Weak answer. I know many people personally who have not been able to appreciate the sport because they can't figure out from game to game what cons utes a foul. This is a direct reflection of the inconsistency of crews from game to game. It is a very real problem. Even players have to adapt to "how the game is being called". If they have to figure it out from game to game, how's the casual fan supposed to figure it out? If you're just beginning to watch the game, it is a huge turnoff. Even with the NHL lockout, I've not been able to recruit people into watching the NBA because of this.
Exactly. They should be doing a much better job but they hardly even try.They aren't going to be perfect. NBA basketball is the hardest sport on earth to ref. It's a fast game with the best athletes in the world. Of course the refs are going to blow calls here and there, but for the most part they do an awesome job.
Have you ever watched international basketball? They have horrible refs. The college game is a lot easier to ref and even there the quality isn't that good.
I know he's no longer a ref. Do you really think it makes a huge difference that he isn't one now? Do you honestly think he's lost all allegiances and sympathies for referees? Do you think it's possible he worked with refs who are still active now? Please. If I'm a doctor who practiced for 30 years but is no longer a doctor, do you think I'd be more likely to make friends with practicing GP or not?Shows how much you know. The director of officials isn't a ref. He used to be but isn't now.
How many refs have been turfed over the years? I'd say the turnover is pretty low.Ex-refs are not biased. I'd agree that if the refs were being judged by other current refs, that'd be a sticky situation. But each ref is graded after every game. They review the first half at halftime to see what plays they called right and which plays they called wrong. If the refs don't grade high enough, they aren't allowed to advance into the playoffs. If they grade consistently low, they are thrown out of the league.
It is true that ex-refs would be qualified to judge calls but I doubt it's a skill that couldn't be learned by someone who wasn't a ref. If you absolutely had to have ex-refs on the disciplinary panel, it would be a good idea to recruit them from another league so there's absolutely no conflict of interest.First of all, ex-refs would know better than anyone on how to judge whether a good job was done or not. They've been there and they know how different cir stances lead to different calls.
I'm sure their union would cry foul. They have it pretty good right now. Being a NBA ref is akin to having achieved tenure as a professor. You'd have to practically knife a student to get fired.Second of all, I'm not sure if you understand that the refs have a union. To make such a drastic change, you'd have to pass it thru them. I'm not too sure they are going to want to be judged by a bunch of people who haven't lived it.
Why not? You could review pretty much anything. If a flag is thrown to issue a challenge that stops play, you could ins ute a penality of 2 shots and loss of possession if the challenge is overturned. Judgement calls would be decided by majority votes of the 3 officials upon review. If you eliminate some timeouts like I mentioned, I doubt it slows the game down at all. It would lead to instant, public feedback of the refs and more accurate and exciting bball as the coaches would have to leave the team to it's own devices more often due to the fewer timeouts.It might work in theory, but to make this a reality you'd have to come up with a huge set of restrictions. Like in the NFL, only certain things could be reviewed. You can't review judgment calls.
Yeah, I'm sure that's what you'd think if you were JVG on that play by Finley with two feet out of bounds that pretty much decided a close playoff game. Had we lost at Denver when Tim was ejected after Melo slipped, I'm sure you'd have been understanding of that call as well.If you want to limit it to out-of-bounds plays, goaltends and things of that nature, sure it could work. But to me that would be unnecessary. Why halt play for a couple minutes, bring out the monitors and check four calls a game? In the NFL it makes sense because there are a limited number of plays. In the NBA, each team has the ball so many teams that it correcting one or two calls a game isn't worth the hoopla.
Please clearly highlight the scenarios you "shot down". All you've done is deflect the discussion completely towards LA 2004 even though I only referenced it once in passing. You're all about reducing this argument to Spurs related "whining" instead of listening to the real issues. You can't write two sentences without spewing some kind of "man up" nonsense.
As have you. You feel that the refs are doing their best and the system couldn't possibly be improved. You think we should praise Allah that we don't have international refs and we should be grateful with what we have. I think you're wrong. The very nature of this argument is at least half subjective.You have only pointed to opinions so far.
I'll do my best to find it for you.Oh yeah, I didn't think you'd have a link to that Pop quote either. Typical TwoHandJam to quote three paragraphs and then make the situation broader so that he can escape.
Last edited by TwoHandJam; 05-12-2005 at 07:42 PM.
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